Cyberpunk & Ethics

[missionhill]

There is much authority on the boards and in the wider knowledge of literature... that cyberpunk is about saving one's self... not about saving the world.

Maybe.

Working with a metaphysical even ethical idea that "all that is within us is reflected outside of us." Perhaps cyberpunk evolves more perhaps those whom interpret it will give a little wiggle room.

When in literature has anyone only saved themself? No man is an island. If not directly saved... others, animals, ecosystems, books are theoretically saved... or would you lump this into another genre. Perhaps apocalyptic fiction.

There are waves in every literary movement. It may be we are ending the 2nd wave of cyberpunk. The 2nd wave is characterised by more female authors. Also Neal Stephenson's book, Snowcrash is good example of the beginning of the 2nd wave.

I'm sharing because when sitting down to write began to ask where is t h e NBZ morally, politically, economically. The more I imagine these concepts as civilization builders the more I understand how to write a believable speculation story.

[aegis]

Check out Stephenson's Zodiac.

Re: waves, here is one interpretation:
www.cyberpunkreview.com/movie/essays/the-four-eras-of-cyberpunk/

But it's just one view. Yours could be just as valid.

[missionhill]

Yea, my view isn't formed yet. Just asking questions really. To stir the creation engine.
The source on 2nd wave cyberpunk I have is text book with long title... Feminism and Cyberpunk.
Sometime I'll site the details.

Just wrapping my head really around civilization builders... sociology politics ethics economics to form a future I believe could exist. If I believe it is much easier to write within it.

For example... a friend suggested I look at some Thomas Aquinas. I found this theory of his that no man can teach another. I was surprised. The only way I can understand it is Aquinas is talking of experiential learning. This is 800 year old theory.. it's really "iffy"

Oh, and I haven't read all that textbook yet. Some feminist stuff I like and some is awful.
But Stephenson is for sure my fave in the genre.

Lastly, my own experience led me to consider Raymond Chandler as an influence on cyberpunk...
Then I read the tertiary analysis on Wikipedia and realised others had made the connection too.
Urban Crime/Film Noir and Cyberpunk.

[missionhill]

Thanks for that link. @aegis I especially like the sociomusicology connection with Kreftwork.
Music as political force... really societal force... Is something I've researched and wrote thesis.
Specifically about hip hop and jazz and blues... being American art forms and infusing mixed races with status, self-esteem, employment and purchasing power.

[missionhill]

This textbook

www.amazon.com/Cyberpunk-Women-Feminism-Science-Fiction/dp/0786466537/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1361847365&sr=1-1&keywords=cyberpunk+women

[missionhill]

Thanks too for Zodiac idea. I've read it and it's good of you to point out. I'll have to look it over soon.

Right now I'm getting about as academic on this as I want to be...

Cyberpunk will never be obsolete. It's postmodern literature but more so... it's fun.

[grävling]

Try Aquinas as saying that nobody can force anybody to learn anything. You can set things up to give things the very best possible chance that your students will be able to learn whatever it is that you would like them to -- but, in the end, it is their choice to learn, not your choice to teach that matters.

If you spend a lot of your time teaching, you will sometimes run into a situation where no matter how hard you work at it, and also no matter how hard your student works at it, they just cannot understand what it is that you are trying to teach. Sometimes, sadly, this is because there is something lacking in their mental capacity. Sometimes this is a matter of time -- as when children who want to read, but cannot, one day for reasons nobody knows, seem to pass some sort of threshold and suddenly reading makes sense to them in a way it never did before.

Sometimes, when you are dealing with people with severe learning disabilities, that never happens.

And sometimes the problem is cultural and social -- you need to have these basic beliefs all well understood before you can handle this more advanced course. Which is why university courses have pre-requisites. But other things even at the elementary school level have pre-requisites .... children who grow up in familes without television may be missing a large amount of cultural clutter that they are expected to have. And they, of course, may be full of cultural clutter from books and what have you that is not part of the common experience of their teachers and peers.

When Aquinas was a student, failure to learn was even more seen as a flaw in the student -- laziness, obsinancy, etc which was to be corrected by beating the children. Aquinas, who became a brilliant scholar, was a very poor student. And he was very opposed to corporal punishment as a way of teaching.

[xdesperado]

Okay just to throw my own thoughts into the mix here...

Why can't Cyberpunk or for that manner any form of fiction simply be good fun entertainment that doesn't contain some sort of social or moral point?

There are a number of fine books and good authors that have told wonderful tails without looking to make a point or some comment on humanity and it's condition.

I know of several authors that quite clearly have stated that they were not attempting to do more than spin a good yarn with their writing.

Not saying you should ignore the possibilities of such commentary in your fiction, just don't let it get in the way of your telling an enjoyable story. Also don't be blinded by others definitions of the chosen genre you wish to write in. There have been whole new genre's created because authors decided to tell a story that wasn't neatly slotted into others existing categories of fiction. For example 20 years ago you wouldn't have found any "Paranormal Romances", there were "Horror Stories" and "Romances". Now they are an extremely popular segment in the fiction market.

[missionhill]

grävling thank you!!! You helped shine a light of clarity.

As applied to the 23rd century in Boston. I've been playing in my head that if there is a federal government it would be a libertarian government. (I don't care for politics and would classify myself as independent.) However libertarians don't give out government money. Schools for learning disabled would no longer exist.

I just read an Sunday New York Times article about politics and eugenics.

I'm glad to learn about no corporal punishment. I'll pass it along with friends. Thanks.

[missionhill]

xdesperado you are right! This is my artist process? I research then I write. This is boring dry research phase. I need it so I can believe what I'm writing to be true. Like JRR Tolkein believed middle earth was real. Like how the shape of the double helix came to Watson in a dream, perhaps it was a bicycle ride.

I'm a published poet and journalist. But I've never written speculative fiction before. It's much more difficult than I thought.

To get some "terraforming" tools my instinct tells me to learn about the writing and works of those who have influenced western civilization. I bet I can write something. something The more I believe it the more fun it is too.

[grävling]

There are many people who believe that no art exists without having a political or moral message. So when an author says that their work has no message -- they are either incredibly naive, or deluding themselves, or merely saying that they were unaware of the political and moral message in their work as they were writing it -- and perhaps even now.

It is fairly difficult to have conversations with these people -- sort of like arguing with popular psychologists who accuse you of having some fashionable disorder. If you agree, then they have made their point. If you disagree, they say you are 'in denial' and again have made their point. The only way to win is not to play ...

But it seems clear that a certain amount of 'no message here' fiction really does have the message of 'support the status quo'.

[xdesperado]

@missionhill I often draw encouragement for my own feeble attempts at writing from one of my favorite authors.
He told how as a young would be writer he was struggling to create a good story. Another veteran author told him to relax and just write about what he knew.
Now as a young man this author's biggest influence in life to that point had been his time serving in an army mechanized unit in the Vietnam war. He had no interest in doing what he felt would be boring autobiographical accounts of his service in a war many wanted to forget. However using some of his own experiences as a bases he started writing short science fiction and novellas. Now day's it is rather difficult to imagine David Drake ever having trouble figuring out how to write something, yet there he was at the start of his career struggling to find a direction for his creativity.

If you "know" about something or have experienced things for yourself, then it becomes easier to create a compelling story using those elements. Then utilize the setting to take it out of the ordinary and into the extraordinary. Think of CK and the NBZ as a stage set, then incorporate the things that make it a unique environement into your own tale.

[missionhill]

xdesperado thank you. I have two small offerings to our fan fiction NBZ Garden. I lived in Roxbury Crossing for ten years. I pretty much know about gardening so that's how my characters stay afloat really.

It's the stuff I don't know. Ok, there was a scourge.. what was that.. there's bookshops... Ok.. there's nicotine.. Ok... there's a bio-dome ok.. so I'm in the Framework of Trese Bros. Creation.
My first thought go with "the past is the future"

My next contribution will most likely introduce that this NBZ etc.does have a federal government. It's a libertarian government. It's almost like having no government. But also the more important thing is driving a plot with characters. The Dad is teaching the daughter how to hack without implants. It's easy they have an old house dirt cellar... there hardwired anywhere they dig. It's based on the house I lived in , on Mission Hill in Roxbury Crossing.

I prefer hard science sci-fi. I prefer applied over theoretical. And as much as I love what I have so far I may dump the whole thing. I've never done fan fiction before and Trese Bros have intellectual property rights for the Framework of any story I may right. That could be a very cool thing... I don't know. I'm open and optimistic. If story nags me to continue it I will.

Just today I asked a collaborator of mine if he wanted it to be a story for a comic.

I digress. Apologies.

grävling ... I agree with you.Well said.

[xdesperado]

grävling to a certain degree all artists works will be influenced to a greater or lesser degree by the artists own life experiences and the society they reside within.
Those influences can easily be interpreted by those intent upon doing so to the resultant art being alagorical or having some sort of deeper message or meaning.
While some artists set out to intentionally create such messages with their works, a great number of them are simply expressing their creative urges and sharing their unique visions and dreams with others.

For an interesting take on the artistic spirit Orson Scott Card wrote a wonderful novella about a future society that tried to completely isolate artists from society and outside influences so their unique artistic vision would be uncontaminated by others. The story is about one such musical genius that a fan shares some Mozart with and how despite the governments brutal attempts to destroy him he continued to find ways to express his musical vision.

Can and does art pose a social and moral commentary? Yes by all means, but I believe that is seldom the intent of most artists. It is your Pop Psychologists that want to try and place a meaning behind every work of art instead of just trying to enjoy the art for its own sake.

With the above being said...missionhill if you truly want to have some sort of social or moral commentary behind your stories of the NBZ then that is great as well. I was only trying to point out that it could be easy to let such issues get in the way of telling a compeling story. Hopefully you'll find your own balance of creative storytelling and social commentary to continue entertaining us with your own tales of the NBZ. ;D

[Cory Trese]

We love getting input, but the Cyber Knight setting is more developed than it is undefined.

The US Federal Government collapsed in the 2100s, as did the EU.

The Mega Corporations are the only government that really matters anymore.