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Post by xdesperado on Feb 28, 2013 4:41:22 GMT -5
Wondering if Moxa and Lt. Simmon are available in regular sandbox games or only when running MnB? Moxa isn't really a big deal but Lt. Simmon has some nice rewards...specifically the gate pass.  Regular sandbox play offers the button at Weingarts to talk to the Lt. but despite my rep being over 60 the front desk still tells me to get lost when I ask to speak with him.  |
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Swami
Templar
[ Heroes of Steel Supporter ]
Lost
Posts: 1,004
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Post by Swami on Feb 28, 2013 5:20:05 GMT -5
The pass is available in sandbox I believe. Not from Lt. Simon.
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Post by grävling on Feb 28, 2013 6:19:02 GMT -5
Texas Powers gives you the pass, but nobody gives you the rapid transit reward that is the top of Lt Simon's ladder. (It continues after you find out about the Operation).
Moxa is around, but she just gives you Fennian thugs as runners -- nothing about Bravestar.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 1, 2013 15:31:05 GMT -5
Just a thought here, but shouldn't all the NPCs that a new player encounters/deals with in a tutorial be present in regular sandbox play with most of their abilities intact? The Lt. and Moxa are prime examples. Having Moxa grant an access to Lt. Simmons after a certain amount of FN rep was earned would give players more options and be less frustrating to new players who after running the MnB tutorial can't utilize familiar characters in sandbox play. Do story specific NPCs have a place in CK? Most definitely, but should they be a part of a tutorial? I don't think so. Just my own thoughts but would love to hear what others think about it. |
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Post by grävling on Mar 1, 2013 15:54:14 GMT -5
I'd like a way for not MnB chars to earn a rapid pass from Washington Street to River Park, yes please.
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Post by JohnnyMnemonic on Mar 1, 2013 20:30:27 GMT -5
Do story specific NPCs have a place in CK? Most definitely, but should they be a part of a tutorial? I don't think so. Just my own thoughts but would love to hear what others think about it. If I remember right don't some of the characters in MnB even tell you to look them up when you get topside? Probably already on the drawing board to tie the tutorial story into the main game area. I think since MnB is the first piece with a storyline its just not all tied together yet. |
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 2, 2013 2:31:07 GMT -5
The different stories and game endings will provide different variations of the sandbox. Some players may prefer the MnB sandbox configuration to a future story ending. They won't all be equal because then we loose the variety and options that come from natural variation.
By making all of the MnB NPC equivalent in the sandbox it seems that the game becomes less interesting and more homogeneous.
From a story standpoint, the MnB Cyber Knight has earned his place with those contacts based on things he's done that the normal sandbox character cannot do. Like wise, we will be developing side-plots that apply to sandbox and future stories that may not be available to the MnB character.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 2, 2013 3:46:01 GMT -5
@cory I think where my issue comes from is that MnB is trying to do two different things and those might be conflicting with each other. I might possibly have the wrong idea here and if so feel free to call me an idiot. LOL 1st thing is that MnB was to serve as an introduction to and tutorial for CK and the various game concepts, conventions and generally how to play the game. Typically for such introductions/tutorials games make sure that all the various parts work exactly as the player will see them in the full game. If a player is taught that action A gets you result B in the tutorial they then expect it to do the same in the regular game. So I learn that Moxa can set me up with a great connector in BS and I go off spending time tracking her down only to find out that nope she just gives me FN thugers. Not a game breaker but not what the newer player expected to happen either based on the tutorial they just played through. 2nd MnB is the long awaited first story mode where instead of creating your own plots for your characters in your head, you get a chance to take a role in an extended story. Definitely very much the RPG and a wonderful thing. Now a story can and should have unique elements, challenges and rewards not available to the normal game play. Those things are what help to make the story more vibrant and help give your hero his/her uniqueness. So as you can see my thoughts are that MnB might be suffering a bit of a split personality. Is it a tutorial or a stand alone adventure. Can it succeed as both? Yes. Is it bad or a failure now? No. Hope the above made some sense to you guys and please keep up the great work. You wouldn't be reading nearly so many posts from me if I didn't love your games so much. My phone has been seeing as much action as my PS3 with the majority of that time spent either ST or CK or else here on these forums.  |
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 2, 2013 13:40:09 GMT -5
It has a split personality, no doubt. We had time to make one thing and needed both. The year of development it required to create the MnB put us in a position where we couldn't make it a pure story or a pure tutorial.
Regarding the 1st point, I do think that this is accurate as a tutorial element. The lesson is "In Cyber Knights, Action A will not always get you Action B because your character's role in the world matters quiet a bit."
I know Andrew is working on smoothing out some of the rough edges -- for example, making Moxa more clear when she's talking to sandbox characters who may have a MnB player controlling them.
It is my feeling that as we release a second, third, fourth and on story the split personality issue with fade somewhat. It sticks out more right now because it is the only story option.
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Post by grävling on Mar 2, 2013 18:10:53 GMT -5
Why not just break them in half -- end MnB at 'leaves tunnels' and start a new story at 'starts working with Fennians'. You will need a little bit of writing to get players who begin the story with 'starts working with the Fennians' introduced, but not too much, I wouldn't think.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 2, 2013 18:17:51 GMT -5
Why not just break them in half -- end MnB at 'leaves tunnels' and start a new story at 'starts working with Fennians'. You will need a little bit of writing to get players who begin the story with 'starts working with the Fennians' introduced, but not too much, I wouldn't think. I sort of agree with this idea for a tutorial. The exit from the tunnels then becomes your symbolic "birth" into the full life of a CK in the NBZ. You weren't born a Cyber Knight, you have been transformed into one and now it is time for you to take on the real challenges of that new life. |
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 2, 2013 18:25:32 GMT -5
Wouldn't that annoy players who've exited the Tunnels and have to start a new character to continue?
Seems like the game is better served by introducing the sandbox to the MnB character.
I'm pretty sure it will all work out very well as designed once we release a few more stories.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 2, 2013 18:59:41 GMT -5
Wouldn't that annoy players who've exited the Tunnels and have to start a new character to continue? Seems like the game is better served by introducing the sandbox to the MnB character. I'm pretty sure it will all work out very well as designed once we release a few more stories. I think what Grävling is suggesting is that when you break MnB in two parts the tutorial tunnel part plays much like it does now with same options when exiting the tunnels to allow the characters that already exist to continue on. However it would enable those not wanting to go through the "tutorial" tunnels portion to get involved in the real meat of the story. Maybe start the second half off for those who didn't go through the tunnels with an email from Mallor saying congratulations on your graduation from training kid, get a little experience working with Luka and company then come look me up. Just watch your back cause they sure won't be. Remember be steel and good luck. Then have them call Luka who tells them to talk to Cava and Moxa and your back to the same spot. |
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 2, 2013 19:00:40 GMT -5
I guess I'm thinking too much about how STE works, but I don't get it at all |
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Post by grävling on Mar 2, 2013 19:01:18 GMT -5
Wouldn't that annoy players who've exited the Tunnels and have to start a new character to continue? Seems like the game is better served by introducing the sandbox to the MnB character. I'm pretty sure it will all work out very well as designed once we release a few more stories. No, you just let the tutorial character continue into the next story if they want to. It may be that with a few more stories things will get different, but right now I would rank the Tunnel story as 'excellent' but the part of the story that takes place in the NBZ as 'poor' and as the sort of poor that needs a rewrite and a ton of more material rather than the sort that needs a few patches. 1 don't like the way that the Knight has no real connection with Mercer or Luka when he gets to the Tunnels. I don't like the fact that the Knight has no particular motivation to go work for B. S at all. I think that talking to Moxa and the Kelly's is pretty much a waste of time. I have rather more freedom to do whatever I want than is good for me ... isn't Mars watching? Why aren't they finding the fact that I don't give too hoots for the Fennians and actually spend my time working for KH suspicious? traitorous? I don't like it that Simon hands out the BS gateway pass, as it cheapens the top of the Texas Powers ladder. Indeed, I don't really see the point of working for Simon at all. If you deleted his character and replaced using him with getting in on Texas Powers ladder, I think things would work better. But making a new, different ladder-ish connector for the Fennians -- that would make a certain amount of sense. For one thing you could also do Cava's ladder the normal way which would give you King's taxi chip. And this new proposed connector could have some tie ins with BS which would make your transition to working for them seems natural. Moxa could even be that sort of a ladder connector, much as Kazuo is for the Yakuza. I don't like it that you get handed 'nice rep booster cards' -- it would be better to require knights to get Mars rep the hard way, if you want them to be allowed into the backroom .... and all that means is asking for something that isn't urgent that requires this before there is an Operation. I don't like it that the very first time Mars actually wants the CK to do something, it is an Operation, not some missions to test his loyalty or whatever. I don't like it that the CK cannot get outside information about the Krofters to help in figuring out what to do. I don't like it that as soon as Saras journal gets mentioned, the option of escorting them both to the docks goes away .... I'm a Cybersword, putting people who don't want to go places in sacks and hauling them off there anyway is what I do for a living. If I want Eliza on a boat, she's going to wake up on a boat. So from my end it looks very much as if the Tutorial was storyboarded very well, with NPC interactions with NPCs who have reasons to be there and goals which revolve around teaching (except for Mercer, whose entire existence I don't really see the point of, but a little extra colour is not necessarily a bad thing), but when we got to the NBZ we stopped having goals, and reasons for doing anything, except 'explore because it is fun'. Which means that, for my experience at any rate, the story sort of fell off in this story mode. Does this make sense? |
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