Getting encounters while in an encounter

[slayernz]

I've noticed from time to time as my outlander is feverishly chasing down a foe, that he accidentally triggers a new encounter with the ole "Did you hear that". The problem is that the outlander is about as stealthy as an elephant in a room full of bubble wrap, so of course he fails the encounter roll, and the enemies get to move. But WAIT ... I was in the middle of a move. I had planned out my AP so that I could reach and kill the spider in this particular turn. Instead, I find myself overly stretched, and the enemy attacks. Had my outlander been anything other than the wall of muscles and hunkahunkaburning love that is is, he might have even gotten hurt.

So .. please keep the encounter isolated, or if you do want to have nested encounters, just add the new beasties to the enemy's turn. Don't interrupt the current turn.

[beuns]

I totally agree with that !

It's rather frustrating to find yourself loosing AP, the rest of your turn (because the other characters hadn't moved yet) and just looking at more enemies coming and hurting that poor outlander that just wanted to kill that bow ratkin 2 squares away from him that is shooting at him laughing...

[fallen]

Thanks! We already added this one to the list from another thread, but now have marked a few more points by it for consideration!

[hosh]

I had been traveling and been on retreat so I have not played Phase 2 at all.

Just reading this and having not played it yet .. as annoying as it is, I think this sounds pretty awesome. In historical campaigns, there has been incidences of luring out forces into a trap. It's why you want disciplined calvary so they don't go haring off after fleeing foes, only to find them being ambushed. I mean, *should* the outlander have been haring off on his own? Maybe not ...

I can see why people would think this is a bug. It feels unfair, but it really isn't. So I'm putting my contrarian vote to keep it, or at least, give hints about it in specific scenarios. ("I hear there are bandits living there..."). That is, maybe have specific (and maybe rare) scenarios where prepared ambushes will interrupt the movement turn; and an easy (survivable) encounter early in the game to teach you that this is a possibility.

[fallen]

hosh - appreciate the counter vote, its great to hear more opinions on it. Your feelings run closer to Cory and my original opinion and the reason we left it in.

[johndramey]

I actually agree with hosh to an extent. Yes, it is frustrating when it happens, but I've actually only had it happen to me twice. Both times I had the same thought "Well shit, guess I shouldn't have over-extended myself!"

The only caveat I'd like to put in is if the already engaged force gets another move, they really shouldn't. I mean, if possible let them have another partial action or something (such as firing off a bow or getting an extra swipe) to simulate surprise. The engaged forces shouldn't really get another full action. To be 100% honest though, I can't remember if this is the case or not. Like I said, it's only happened to me 2 or 3 times during the Alpha. I want to say that under the current system both groups of enemies get a full action, but I wouldn't put money on it.

[fallen]

As it is, the interruption gives the turn back to the enemy, and all of the enemy get full AP. That's probably the root of the complaint if we look back to the first post in the thread.

[beuns]

To me a part of my complaint is that you loose all left AP since the turn is given back to enemy : you move the outlander first to chase a ratkin archer and got the "did you hear that ?" not only the outlander is stop in his movement but all your character that hasn't do anything yet loose all their turn. In an ambush you can still react to it if your fast enough.

Maybe the remaining characters can be allowed a roll to see if they can still react to the apparition of new enemies.

[slayernz]

Actually, i was just in the level 2 mines in the top-right hand side of the map. I found a Ratkin camp with a LARGE number of beasties. I was down to the last 2 to kill (squad was in a square formation), when all of a sudden, the Shaman conjured up a ton of new Ratkin including the bladed ones, the arrow ones, and more of the Shaman ones. The result was pretty swift - my party got surrounded and with each strike causing 20+ damage against my party, it didn't take long for one of the party to fall.

The thing was that I didn't move - the party was actually in an excellent position against the first group of enemies. It was the second group that appeared out of nowhere that caused my defeat BTW, that sucks because even on Normal difficulty, you get the option to "replay the last turn". Replaying the last turn makes not one iota of difference, so this party is effectively dead regardless of the fact there is no permadeath.

[hosh]

Nov 7, 2013 2:41:43 GMT -5 slayernz said:

Actually, i was just in the level 2 mines in the top-right hand side of the map. I found a Ratkin camp with a LARGE number of beasties. I was down to the last 2 to kill (squad was in a square formation), when all of a sudden, the Shaman conjured up a ton of new Ratkin including the bladed ones, the arrow ones, and more of the Shaman ones. The result was pretty swift - my party got surrounded and with each strike causing 20+ damage against my party, it didn't take long for one of the party to fall.

I vote for anything towards making it more tactically realistic (as much as a game on an smartphone is realistic!).

With a lot of games, summoned creatures show up with 0 AP, and can't move in that same turn. It is even plausible -- the disorientation from having just been summoned from another dimension makes sense.

On the other hand, a prepared ambush scenario, free APs makes more sense. It leaves open the possibility that *some* (rare?) summoned creator can get an action in on a turn; though if that was done, I think there should be in-game story hints about it.

[hosh]

Nov 7, 2013 2:01:05 GMT -5 beuns said:

To me a part of my complaint is that you loose all left AP since the turn is given back to enemy : you move the outlander first to chase a ratkin archer and got the "did you hear that ?" not only the outlander is stop in his movement but all your character that hasn't do anything yet loose all their turn. In an ambush you can still react to it if your fast enough.

This is not true. There is a real-life tunnel effect that happens when you chase something, especially if you think you got the drop on something. I know this because I use this exploit alot when sparring with friends; it has been done to me as well. You were not expecting someone else to show up so *wham*! There are many authors who wrote about it in their strategy books: Sun Tzu, Musashi, John T. Boyd. It gets even more interesting when you "stack" that kind of a tunnel vision effect on top of each other, and the opponent falls on its own weight of confusion. Especially if *they* think it is unfair :-D

With the tunnel effect, you tend to keep trying to do what you are doing even if part of your mind sees that new thing coming. This is not a matter of speed or reactions.

It takes significant training to fight in a way where you don't get the tunnel effect. That's why a disciplined calvary in real world armies are more effective than an inexperienced calavary.

Like I said: this has more to do with perceptions of fairness. I can see why people would feel this is unfair. But it is not unfair.

What can be better done is managing expectations, where you build into the game story about how this can happen, and other hints about a prepared ambush. So if you as a player failed to take heed, ... well, you fell on your own sword.

[fallen]

Yes, if it stays as a rule, we'd have to really point it out and specifically have it happen to your group early on in the game.

slayernz - they were not summoned, they were unleashed south of your position and walked to close in behind you! Blame Cory for being a sinister dungeon author! He lured you in there.

[slayernz]

I saw them spawn in though - they just popped up ... no movement animation, not even a "Did you hear something" message ... just death all around. Death ... pain ... dismemberment ... My party hadn't moved a muscle, and had already killed off at least 8 including two giant rats. btw, it seemed those rats only gave 1XP per kill (although I could be wrong)

[beuns]

Nov 7, 2013 16:34:11 GMT -5 fallen said:

Yes, if it stays as a rule, we'd have to really point it out and specifically have it happen to your group early on in the game.

slayernz - they were not summoned, they were unleashed south of your position and walked to close in behind you! Blame Cory for being a sinister dungeon author! He lured you in there.

I also saw them appearing from nowhere, they in fact appeared in the middle of my group in the very square next to my wizard and my thief (both had enemy directly next to them I mean), so yes as I had no mean to avoid that, I feel it unfair but of course it is a matter of preception. (no irony here, just realizing the truth...)
Could I have avoided them ? And how ?

[slayernz]

I agree with beuns here ... I've seen enemies move in from another area of the map, and this was no movement. They just "popped" into existence. No warning. Then they ate me. Got a little warning there.