Buffs vs Damage

[eldur]

I went through and completed the alpha 2 a second time. Rather than focusing on buff/tank tactics, I focused on damage abilities.

The game was so much easier.

I still needed a few tactics now and again, but I was mostly firing off enhanced attacks and keeping squishes away from damage.

Even when I buffed, it didn't "feel" any more effective than it did for my group that specialized in buffing and cursing.

Are buffs being looked at?
As it is now, it doesn't "feel" like it is worth casting the buffs or curses or developing them.


Thanks!

[beuns]

Did you play the 2 times on same difficulty ?
I ask that because I'm going through my 2nd run too and I'm also changing my builds but it is really much more difficult so I'm wondering if it's my build or only different diff that gives that effect.

[eldur]

Nov 14, 2013 9:25:06 GMT -5 beuns said:

Did you play the 2 times on same difficulty ?
I ask that because I'm going through my 2nd run too and I'm also changing my builds but it is really much more difficult so I'm wondering if it's my build or only different diff that gives that effect.

I went through both plays on Normal in order to compare a buff/curse team to a damage team.


The pain was greater on the buff team because they are much more focused on minimizing and controlling damage. Enemies that were super-buffed (or persisted curses) ate right through defenses, and the prolonged fights were brutal.

The second time through, I minimized damage by destroying the enemies before they could surround me.

Even against enemies that weren't bug-buffed or bug-cursing, it felt like my buffs really didn't do anything.
Buff the outlander, or fireball and remove one damage source? FIREBALL!!!!

I learned how much fun it is to throw fire

[absimiliard]

Guess I need to try out a new style. I've been poking the harder difficulties and mostly running a buff/de-buff team due to what folks have been saying. Seeing how a straight up alpha-strike team does on the higher difficulty should be interesting.

-abs

[beuns]

Totally agreed eldur ! My 1st run were focusing on making the outlander as difficult to kill as possible (stone skin, shield, constitution) and the other on damage (aimed shot and firebolt for ranged) and the cleric to heal and finish off the wounded. I found this tactic pretty efficient.
I'm trying another build around accuracy and 2H blades for the outlander but I'm still struggling to make it reliable.

[eldur]

For what it's worth, here are my two builds.

I'm only going to point out the differences.

Team 1 is Team Alpha Strike (I like the name given by absimiliard)
Team 2 is Team Tank

I'm listing the characters below with the numbers meaning Team 1/Team 2

Outlander

Con 8/10
Str 8/7
Int 4/3

Blades 9/4
Leader 1/4
Lore 2/4

Crushing Blow 6/2
Phalanx Shield 0/2
Stone Skin 1/3

Weapon 2 hander vs sword/shield

Team Alpha (1) development/play strategy: Balance Con and Str, focus on blades and Crushing Blow. I still need to be able to take a punch, but I want the enemy to feel my fury. If I run out of SP, my base attack still hurts.

Team Tank (2) development/play strategy: Hitpoints and Buffs. GET BEHIND ME!!! TURTLE POWAH!!!


Thief
Dex 9/10
Int 5/4

bow 9/7
stealth 3/5

Aimed Shot 6/2
Farsight 1/2
Deadly Intuition 0/1
Blacknight 0/2

Team Alpha (1) development/play strategy: Dex is important, but a little Int to help in longer fights. SP is precious so I save Aimed Shots for hard to hit enemies. I don't really feel that it's as potent as other boosted attacks.
Team Tank (2) development/play strategy: Pure Dex, balance bow and stealth for scouting as we need to be careful! Boost utility so we can take our time and know when to hide behind Mr Turtle

Cleric (almost identical between parties)
Int 10
Lore 8

Tear 3/4
Anguish 2/1
Sacrifice 2/2

Team Alpha (1) development/play strategy: Int and Lore, if your party dies you have FAILED as a cleric. After level 6, give your power to the party to limit the number of trips back to town (this will be nerfed/fixed to be less potent). Anguish didnt seem to do much.
Team Tank (2) development/play strategy: Int and Lore...GET BEHIND THE TANK ALREADY!

Wizard
Int 10/7
Kn 4/7

Sorc 9/5
Conj 2/6

Firebolt 6/3
Choke 1/4
Burning Blade 0/1

Team Alpha (1) development/play strategy: Int + Sorc + Fireball...BURN BABY BURN!!! If it's dead, it doesnt hurt! After 6th level, Hey Cleric! ALL YOUR SP ARE BELONG TO US
Team Tank (2) development/play strategy: Balance Int and Knowledge, balance Sorc and Conjure, Balance Firebolt and Choke...pick up other buffs. RUNAWAY Brave Sir Karjtan!

[fallen]

eldur and team - thanks for the discussion! This is really important balancing stuff, and exactly the reason we have you -- our 50 best -- on the Alpha team! I'd love to see other team member's groups posted with your strategy and how you think they are resulting.

A couple of things:

1) Yes, Curse vs. Monster Scaling was already on my list to investigate.
2) Savage Sweep (barb, accuracy talent) has a bug in v1.0.5 that adds accuracy, but to the wrong dice pool. It is far less strong than it should be.
3) Ethereal Anguish has a bug in its reduction of AP code that means it is not consistently going to slow your targets down every turn. It is definitely enhanced in the upcoming version.
4) There are some things out of place with the monster scalers (see #1) that cause enemy accuracy to grow too fast, meaning that your defensive buffs (Phalanx Shield) is not going to make the type of difference you wish it would past say, Level 4 characters.

Your balancing insight is critical, please keep pouring it on! We are in the process of wrapping up a P2 update that will help bring all this and more to you guys so you can keep playing and feeding us nuggets of gold.

[John Robinson]

My Party is Thief centered. I believe throughout history reconnaissance remains the most lethal weapon of warfare. During game play I have faced multiple high powered monsters supported by large numbers of less powerful meat shields. My small party of 4 can be quickly overwhelmed by attrition, and flanking. With AP7 if the monsters are at close range my party cannot outrun many of them. For me Initiative is the difference between victory and defeat.

Stealth, and Farsight allows party to seize the Initiative and survive. My Thief is built like a Wizard with a bow. I don’t consider her a combatant. She is the eyes and ears that will pull monsters into a waiting ambush on ground she chooses to place the other party members in.

All her attribute points go into Intelligence. All her skill points go into Stealth. All her talent points go into Farsight, with one or two in Blacknight to buff dodge and stealth. I set up the party in a choke point where the Outlander cannot be bypassed, and spells, and arrows can be fired without getting the “Monster is too Close” message. Then send her out on long range reconnaissance until enemy contact is made. With Farsight 3, you go from a range of 6 to 7. Walls do not stop it from revealing adjacent map areas. The red flash warns of nearby enemies, or blue for safe areas, green for traps, so I have some Idea of what lies ahead

Theory: When Farsight range, and Stealth are higher than a monster’s AP you will win Initiative. When the opposite is true the ones with enough AP will see you and you will see them, but you get the first move.

Practice: I have unmasked an area with Farsight and get the red flash. With high stealth, I risk creeping slowly forward until attack is triggered. I’m often far enough away from the leading monsters, to cast one more Farsight to see how many are around and behind the front line, then use the remaining AP to begin retreating to the ambush site. Next using all my AP I continue to move towards the ambush site. I notice only a small number of monsters continue pursuit, and I can see the others frozen in place. If I’m far enough ahead, or whip around a corner my current pursuers will sometimes stop. The point is I can measure the full strength of the enemy force, then draw them out a few at a time into the ambush at long range. During combat I expect her bow damage to be low, and use it to soften up incoming monsters or finish off those on their last 10HP. This has been very successful in drawing high value targets like shaman out in the open with very little support. Or separating archers from infantry protection.

Thief Wish list I would very much like her to start with more SP and get a greater number when leveling, and a greater number when investing in Intelligence attribute. Trap clearing, lockpicking have been improved nicely in SP cost. But Farsight is and should be a high ticket talent to use. But my parties playtime is limited by her fuel tank. Potions are not plentiful nor will they be inexpensive. I use them for emergencies, or if I have allot of them to extend the search a little longer.

The Thief is a wonderfully balanced character that is allot of fun to play. I hope her tools remain intact, or even dare I say it improve. Taking anything away from her would be a heartbreak.

My Outlander I Actually spend the first 3 levels adding +1 intelligence to his attributes, then more as needed. I’m having very good luck with Stone Skin, and Phalanx Shield. Buffed with the Wizard’s Pure Flame Shield, he gets enough magic protection that at this point I don’t expect him to ever do on his own. I decide on what weapon type to use right from the start and just wait until I get one. I don’t spread these points, I specialize.

My Wizard All of my attribute points go into Intelligence. If he gets exposed to melee he is dead meat so I don’t try to raise polearms. Choking Ash is his most cost effective spell, I bump it, and conjuration to support it. I keep the Firebolt under control. When it is too high the overkill on weaker monsters, or finishing off the wounded is wasted spell points. I raise it as the when game progress shows it is becoming obsolete. After that, it’s just a waiting game until we are post Alpha and can get my hands on Meteoric Blast and Firestorm.

My Cleric I disagree with those who say her starting HP is too high. Also remember the Wizard gets 10 SP per level she gets 8, over the long term that will make a difference. Her buff spells become very expensive, so all her attribute points go into intelligence and I don’t use her as a support combatant. To me she is a mage with heavier armor and a better weapon to defend her herself with. I think more than any other character she must specialize and not spread her talents and points broadly. When caught in the open her hit points will never keep her from being mortally wounded, I don’t expect her to ever go toe to toe in melee at the expense of other skills and talents. I invest in conjuration to support buff/curse spells. Then plan to bank points to unlock her only attack spell available before reaching level 24. I plan on spending points in Holy Retribution, level one starts a 22-42 damage with a reasonable cost of 3AP, 8SP. Also add points to sorcery for better accuracy.

[slayernz]

I've been playing the best offense=best defense plan like eldur. The common logic is "if it's dead, it doesn't hurt!"
The outlander has focused on sword skills and that crushing blow thing, along with constitution.
The Wizard has been focusing on intelligence and offensive spells
The Thief has been working on her bow skills, aimed shot, and a little torrent of steel
The Cleric is the patch person with heal and sacrifice.

Haven't finished with my first 100%er though, and will need to redo with a harder difficulty, but MAN is this game addictive!

Oh, John, my clerc is still level 6, and sitting on 256 SP. My wizard is sitting on 220 SP. Even with the +2 gain by the Wizard every level, it's going to take him 18 levels to beat Kyera

[fallen]

slayernz - thanks for the post! That's definitely one of the optimal builds in my opinion. I'm playing through as Buff-Curse focused team and examining curses vs. monster balance and finding little itty bugs in the monster scalers.

[John Robinson]

Nov 14, 2013 16:36:22 GMT -5 slayernz said:

Oh, John, my clerc is still level 6, and sitting on 256 SP. My wizard is sitting on 220 SP. Even with the +2 gain by the Wizard every level, it's going to take him 18 levels to beat Kyera

I agree. I guess what I mean is the Wizard should begin the game with a higher number of spell points than the Cleric, without reducing her starting number. Until she reaches level 6, she has no direct damage attack spell. That leaves her concentrating points in the main buffs M-Tears, and Ethereal Anguish. Pretty soon those get to expensive to use. After one big battle, she can have an empty tank even with all points in intelligence. It's not hard to get into another scrape before reaching the next gas station, by then she's running on fumes. I'm all for the Wizard dealing out colossal damage with the SP to back it up. I just don't play her as a combat backup. If you lose the medic who is going to drag your butt off the battle field?

[Lesleyr]

I too believe in what is dead doesn't hurt.I like the Cleric the way she is but the Wizard irritates the living daylights out of me. Wizards are supposed to be powerful awe inspiring people,this one is a wimp. For starters more sp.He spends most of the game standing round looking petty either because he has run out of sp or you're frightened to cast anything in case he runs out. His melee attack is hopeless but then it is meant to be. I would recommend a minor adjustment in his staff's damage from the 4-10 range to about 6 or 7 - 12. It won't make a lot of difference when faced by that Cave Spider but psychologically it will make one feel a bit better and help with the hopeless wizard. As he is at present I would ensure I don't include him in my party, prefering instead another character class.

[johndramey]

I'll toss in my 2 cents, I've been playing a more defense oriented build. I posted the exact specifics in our "post your team" thread, but I'll briefly go over each characters.

Wizard - Ranged damage dealer with curses for heavier foes
Cleric - Curser/Buffer and secondary tank. Healing is rarely used
Thief - Scout, mostly bumped up stealth and security. Bow skills secondary to farsight.
Outlander - Front line tank, soaking up damage and killing nearby enemies.

The buffs do seem to be a little anemic right now, I've not noticed any +parry/+dodge skills to be helping, but fallen said that's a known issue. The added protection is nice, but I'd like to see those parry and dodge buffs cause a considerable amount of misses. Since I'm putting a lot of SP and AP towards butting warden's shield and phalanx shield on my front line I don't think it'd be too much to have a considerable (10-20%) increase in miss chance for the enemies.

I've not had a huge amount of trouble with the scaling of the enemies, so tweaking the numbers either way could be interesting.

[fallen]

johndramey - thanks for the extra feedback. We are working on both monster scaling and increasing the power of the buffs to insure that you feel the result. That "feel it immediately" order was definitely achieved offensively, but that took larger numbers like +3. So, the Buffs all probably need to go up a bit still. That extra umph won't be in tonight's update, but it will come in the next one as we spend more time balancing it.