Thinking About Spirit Points

[John Robinson]

We have all given allot of thought to Spirit Points. Some think there are too many camps, others not enough the same goes for spirit point potions. So I asked myself why?

The answer, HOS is a spirit point driven game. Spirit points are the most important feature of the game. The talents you select to develop each of the party members is limited by the availability of this resource.

I have found it necessary for every character to put so many points into the Intelligence attribute, it leaves me wondering how experimenting with other attributes would change the game. If I cannot rely on a regular supply of potions, or walks back to a camp, then each character must have a large supply.

With Star Traders, my playtime went from hours, to days, to months. Looking at all of the forum posts from members routinely playing at advanced difficulties, I was to embarrassed to admit I was still playing easy or normal. I tried difficult a handful of times.

So now I ask. In Star Traders Am I in the minority? For every player forum member or non member, how many are playing at lower difficulty levels and why? Where is the threshold?

HOS is in a category all it's own. ST is open ended, play as long as you want, there is no ending which makes it so appealing. Do I want HOS to be that way? NO. It cannot be, and I believe should not be.

I'm thinking about the casual player, after a hard day at work maybe they have a few hours to spend in an imaginary world. So the strength of HOS is open ended, beautifully crafted character development. Can you get through the toughest dungeons with 1 spirit potion on normal or higher? Many of you can, I cannot. Will I be in the minority when HOS becomes available for purchase?

The tipping point is spirit points. To find out what happens when a character can spread attributes around anyway they want, there must be enough sp to try it.

Am I talking about taking Stone Skin to 10, or dexterity to 12? Why not? How much will a player care about balance if they cannot get enough spirit points to go in any direction that is fun for them. From reading posts, some think it isn't fun unless it is hard to use powerful talents frequently. I believe that is a perfectly valid point of view. Speaking for myself. I envision being able to tailor characters in widely divergent ways, that are not curbed by the availability of spirit points. There are times I would really like to see how cool it would be to use a spell, but don't use it or put points into it simply because it costs to much. What happens when I use a really awesome power, I feel great about the victory, and slam into the battle of my life immediately after exhausting the parties resources? I usually don't take that risk unless there is a camp within walking distance with a clear path.

So balance and fun, probably have left permanent worry marks on you and Cory. I do have a manifesto to offer.

With a milk toast hand, held in a limp fist of defiance, eyes down cast. "Yes I proudly stand with the Wimps".  We want to give the monsters of the world some payback, it's their turn to burn, and feel the steel, but (whimper grovel) please don't take my lunch money away. 

[beuns]

I totally agree with you John Robinson I too play ST in easy mode, only to feel able to play a pirate and attack whoever I want and being victorious anyway.

To get back to HoS, I also find SP to be the heart of the game so I know I can't spend attribute point in any way I want at the moment but carefully think about building the most efficient party. This game is of another type than ST in that sense that you are limited in the way you build your character. Obviously I'm not saying that it's bad. On the contrary, I feel well with that. I'm just saying that it's different.
I like being "forced" to think my build ahead and feeling that I will pay a mistake at some point.

To get back to SP, the fact that replenishing it is mostly dependent on where you are can be a very good way to feel the emotions the characters are supposed to feel. A large part of the feeling of emergency during prison escape is due to this IMO.

Great analysis John ! Thanks

[fallen]

I play most only Hard and Normal. Only the Wizard and Cleric put points in Intelligence, everyone else ignores it. There are multiple ways of managing your spirit. Having higher maximum SP only really helps when you hit a campsite or a town. If you are in a dungeon run (RH) then your SP management matters a lot more than the max. Outside of a camp, few of the potions will "max" out a character.

I don't raise Intelligence for the Outlander and the Thief, and I use 100% of empowered attacks for my characters, always. Maybe it is more of a brash play style (Crushing Blow and Aimed Shot are still my favorites) but that's built into my SP management strategy. By using Curses and piling up hits on the same monsters, I kill them faster and save SP by taking them down quick. Any kind of extended fight burns SP majorly. I'd encourage trying groups where you don't focus so much on Intelligence -- you may find it less debilitating than you think.

0) SP is the #1 resource, and its scarcity (to me) is exciting. It can provide HP, and AP regens every turn.
1) Are there specific talents that you are worried about using too much SP?
2) We just added another campsite to Krellin Deeps and there was another infusion of SP pots into Red Hill (3-4 more)
3) We are working on some new tinctures that would restore smaller amounts of SP for every party member, which could really help spread it around.
4) The game is not like ST ... it has a very planned progression of gameplay, with time and energy going into arrange campsites, towns, short-cuts, and deep dungeons. Clearly (see #2) this isn't perfect, and can use adjusting.
5) Hopefully reaching a town where you can afford to decide how many SP pots you stock will be helpful to control the game.
6) I think, overall, Cory and I will discover that we need to reduce the "time between rest points" in the game. As we have created content, we have used a clear model for it, but it's starting to look that model needs to be revised to consider shorter distances.

Love the feedback, thanks for the very thoughtful posts! Exalt +1

[slayernz]

When I first started playing ST, I played at basic, and loved it. Only after I got really comfy and was in a position where I could just sneeze and half a dozen enemy starships just disintegrated did I feel I was ready to move up. Going straight to Crazy was nuts - I died more often than I lived, but again, when I got established and at home in this environment, I took the plunge to Impossible (I tend to ignore the intermediary steps). I'm still not completely comfortable with Impossible, and I think that's the idea - but when I do go and play Crazy, I find it really comfortable. In fact, it's like acclimatizing. When I moved to Australia, I thought 24 degrees (Celsius) was hot, and 30 degrees was nigh on melting point. This week, I was wearing a sweatshirt at 24 degrees, and today's forecast for 30 degrees has me thinking it's going to be a damned perfect day.

How does this relate to HoS? It does and it doesn't. As John mentioned, the game play is different - with ST there is no specific purpose or end-game. You can take as long as you like picking the stats you want to tweak, and the tweaks can be felt over the long-game, rather than the short. Add an extra point to Tactics? Notice the difference? No? You wouldn't be alone if you didn't notice the difference one skill point made in ST. 10 or 20, sure, MASSIVE differences occur when you are talking in multiple-point additions at once.

With HoS, it's a more immediate change - you tweak one attribute point, and you are able to cast your favorite spell 2 more times in anger, or you are able to hit the target just that much easier, or you are able to soak just that little bit more damage. It's certainly noticeable, which is why choosing the right spot for your singular upgrade point is a little rough at times, and why SP seems to be a critical option.

So question (before I continue with my babble) ... Do you like it as it is right now, where you get up to 1x skill, 1x talent, and 1x attribute point to apply at a level up, or would you prefer it if you got 2x/3x upgrade points that you could spend anywhere you want? Want to boost Intelligence by 2 and Constitution by 1? There would obviously be big advantages to doing that, but then it is offset by the fact you aren't increasing the power of your spells, or accuracy of your blades/bows/thumping sticks. You could get a character so beefed up in SP, but unable to hit anything meaningfully, but the choice would be yours to make.

Anyway, back to the babble

SP is definitely a key element in the game, even though there is visible effort by Cory/Andrew to support non-SP-focused builds. The biggest problem with talent upgrades is that they use a lot more SP, and you definitely have to way up whether you want to have that additional damage, or whether the SP cost is prohibitive. I know that in P2 (1.05?) I was using the Wizard's firebolt 3 a lot more carefully because if I knew an enemy only had 10HP left, I thought it was a waste of 16SP to hit that enemy with firebolt 3. Would I love the ability to cast a reduced version of the spell (eg firebolt 2), definitely. That would make the emphasis on boosting SP on a semi-regular basis less urgent. Would it make the game more complicated, yeah it probably would. I wouldn't know how best to implement this ability (where if you know Firebolt 4, you can cast FB1, FB2, FB3, OR FB4 at a target).

What difficulty am I playing in HoS? Normal mainly ... normal and hard. Because it's a story-line kind of game, I choose to play at a comfortable level so I can just enjoy the story without fearing death around the corner. It's different to ST and TA specifically because of that. In ST and TA, I play harder difficulties because the story element is not as compelling as the game mechanics.

You know ... I should probably write this down in notepad first, arrange it in a coherent order second, THEN post a response, because I think I've argued both ways and am now in the middle of trying to convince you that black really IS white. <grin>.

To summarize ... ST is all about gameplay and building up a captain that I can pick up whenever I want to do whatever I want. Playing hard difficulties on that game means the game continues to be a challenge and exciting. HoS is all about story - and wanting your party to get through the level because the next part of the story is tantalizingly close. Because I like to do 100% completion on the first pass if at all possible, I don't want to face imminent death at every step. I choose easier difficulties knowing that if I ever go back to the beginning again, I have the option to play hard - again once I know the story and can focus more on the gameplay.

[John Robinson]

fallen
4) The game is not like ST ... it has a very planned progression of gameplay, with time and energy going into arrange campsites, towns, short-cuts, and deep dungeons. Clearly (see #2) this isn't perfect, and can use adjusting.

I was concerned how I worded the comparison to ST might be misunderstood. I hope you don't think I confused ST with the RPG genre.
HOS is just the type of game I hoped you guys would do. A planned progression, with a fascinating story line to adventure in.

1) Are there specific talents that you are worried about using too much SP?

Yes, I'll go from general to specifics in another post on this thread, just need some time to put it together.
Regarding 0), 2), 3), 5), 6) Right on target! Got my marshmallows, and beer all ready to be a happy camper.

beuns
To get back to SP, the fact that replenishing it is mostly dependent on where you are can be a very good way to feel the emotions the characters are supposed to feel. A large part of the feeling of emergency during prison escape is due to this IMO.

That is a totally a valid point of view. The divergence in how players approach the game certainly makes Balance somewhat elusive.
Bye the way thanks for the positive feedback. Exalt! +1K

slayernz
Where did you learn how to do a Vulcan Mind Meld? Great Post! I like your idea about multiple points, spent the way you want to. I think that would allow for more variety and quicker custom character builds. I don't think you are babbling, I see careful logical thought weighing the options. Here's to you Big Cat, Exalt! +1