still thinking about smugglers

[absimiliard]

So I've been chewing this over in my head. I know, I know, there's a whole other thread about them. But I'm still not really quite feeling like my smuggler is smuggling. In particular the records creation ability is tough find value in, sometimes it kicks in but usually it doesn't. (and intermittant reinforcement, negative or positive, is no way to produce behaviors even if it reinforces them just fine)

But I think I might have a fairly simple answer.

If the goal for a smuggler is to create a playstyle that rewards blockade running, embargo cheating, and tax evasion (which I think would feel "smuggler"-ey) there might be a simple way to do it using two changes.

First, you could retool the pirate ability, increased rep from trade wars, and instead make it reduce, or maybe better cap, their rep loss for violating embargoes/bans/taxes/etc. I think a cap would be the best choice, then a smuggler could decide to violate an embargo by running goods to a world, but still go back to the faction and buy a pardon.

If you then switched the current smuggler's records ability to match the merchant's you should be good. You could tie it to selling/buying under bans/embargoes, but I wouldn't make it just contraband.

I think this would result in a situation where a smuggler would have incentive to break embargoes/bans/etc. The capped rep-loss would mean a prudent smuggler could recover from the rep-loss, especially if you capped it so they could still visit the Palace for a pardon, and a records-generating ability would give them some incentive to do so. They might smuggle contraband, but not necessarily. And they would still be chasing shortage/surplus rumors and avoiding fights like a mercantile character should.

I'm not sure I've thought through all the implications, but it seems simpler in that it's mostly just re-using an existing ability (the merchant's records ability) and slightly modifying the pirate's rep/politics ability. I think it would feel more like smuggling than the current system. It also doesn't involve wierdness like creating code for new sub-games.

Anyhow, just a thought.

-abs

[Cory Trese]

In this setup I am having trouble understanding what the smuggler's risks are? Doesn't this rep-loss cap make them neigh-invincible? Clearly, if you can reach positive rep with every Faction, you will probably not die.

[absimiliard]

Well, there would still be the risks of space travel to/from the world they're trading at. There would still be the risks of forgetting, or failing quickly enough, to go to faction you offended over an embargo for a pardon since that wouldn't be on the world you were at when the trade took place. But yes, it would make it a lot easier for a smuggler to successfully trade with an embargoed faction and not forever-more be on someone's "Kill on sight" list.

But that's kind of my point. Shouldn't a smuggler be someone who's somewhat suspicious, since you'll never be high-rep with anyone you smuggle against, who breaks embargoes and such? I suppose you could put the cap high enough that you wouldn't be able to buy the pardon with the cash you'd get from the trade, but that would sort of make the whole exercise pointless in the first place.

Heck, you could even remove, or keep the current, records ability. That's just to make it worth it to break an embargo on a non-shortage world.

I guess my concern is that trading contraband just doesn't seem profitable. Even buying at a big-ticket faction world with high negotiate and tactics and selling to an Indep world is still unprofitable. If you get lucky enough to get the records it might be viable, but that almost never seems to happen to me. So I either play my smuggler like a straight merchant or (more likely) I get bored with him and don't play him at all because if I wanted to play a merchant I'd play one. Maybe it's just me and it's not an issue for other people.

I guess I'm also still a little twitchy over smugglers who's best playstyle is to obey all the laws regarding trade. If you never trade with an embargoed world, never carry restricted goods without the proper permits, and generally just chase shortages because they're the most profitable thing to do, you don't feel very "smuggler-ey" to me. It's all just too . . .. legal.

Which is why I'm trying to think of a way to encourage smugglers to break embargoes. I just don't like the thought of stuff like hidden markets or checks to see if you access an exchange on a world where you've got low rep. To be sure they'd do the job. But they sound like a lot of coding for you and Andy. A quick loot of similar abilities, since pirates rep bonus on trade wars clearly interacts rep and politics, seemed easier and quicker and likely to still encourage people to break embargoes.

Besides, there's still loads of ways to lose rep that don't involve breaking embargoes.

But I still might not have thought it out enough. Rep is powerful, no doubt.

-abs

[oldalchemist]

A 'good' smuggler isn't going to appear shady. Not once he's got his contacts established and his bribes paid.

Starting out in STRPG as a smuggler is when the shadiness ensues. You've got to sacrifice reputation for a fuel trade. You might see that poorly defended merchant vessel in deep space and decide that it's in your best interest to be a pirate for a day. The goal of a smuggler should be to get past the point where he needs to take risks.

Maybe that's what's killing me when I try to run Bounty Hunters. I've conditioned myself to eschew excitement and risk. THIS ISN'T A GAME ANYMORE! IT'S A SKINNER BOX!!!!!!

[Cory Trese]

I have done some thinking and calculating. If we bind the reputation loss cap to a skill very tightly it would drive a lot of smuggler focus on that skill and increase the game difficulty by requiring a large expenditure of XP on Negotiation =)

[absimiliard]

Ooh, that's a petty good idea. (binding it to negotiation) It would also help encourage less single stat builds as well, by encouraging the build up of negotiation.

@oldalchy: Maybe it's just me, but that sounds more like a merchant to me. I'll admit freely that my internal concept of snuggling here is less based on historical snuggling and more on Han Solo.

{edit} Also @oldalchy: I'm also noticing I'm getting increasingly risk averse too the higher levels I play. Seems like my contract and target selection is getting particularly picky these days. Both my bounty hunters and pirates are increasingly targeting Indeps instead of Factioneers. Hell, Lissa Cadar (my current Pirate) preys almost exclusively in Indep sectors under stuff like Pirate or Merchant rumors, and Crom of the Steel Song (may he rest in peace) never took a bounty on a factioneer and is very representative of my bounty hunter style. {/edit}

[HateSolstice]

I'm still not really getting the smuggler class as it is right now. It feels an awful lot like a regular merchant, without the feel that I'm doing anything outside of the law.

The point of being a smuggler is to bring products and resources into a market where the local authorities deem said items illegal. Remember the prohabition of the roaring 1920's? Something similar to that is what I imagine.

As for in-game, it seems to me that smugglers should still be able to benefit from trade embargoes without rep loss, or at least make more revenue than normal on illegal contraband. Perhaps they should have a percent chance of not taking a rep hit when using embargoed markets, since they're doing a lot of their business out of view of the law. Or, like the second option, a percent chance of getting higher value for their contraband than normal.

Just some ideas, and probably not the best options at all. I just want to have smugglers feel more like anti-heroes than they do currently.

And to be honest, I never thought Han Solo was a good smuggler. =P

[sebastian]

Can we have upgrade to feel more smugglery too? Flat black paint job, extra 20 engines n sails specially tuned with hemi plasma heads, cop scanner, n cheap sunglasses

[oldalchemist]

Maybe Tie the Rep loss cap to two skills on different abilities, Negotiation and Stealth?

If you want to feel like you're working outside the law, don't get the permits or rank.

Regarding Rep: What about a two layer rep system? Do you really think that a faction is going to execute you for illegal trading? More likely, you'll get your goods seized, ship impounded, suck a massive fine, and spend some time in the pokey, especially if you've never fired a shot in anger at that faction (or an ally). So...regular rep and blood rep? Maybe that's too much overhaul to the whole system.

Really, I think smuggling contracts would work better. "Get 20 tons of weapons to Baza Prime within 15 space weeks. Expect Cadar to have hired Independent Pirates to stop you."

[absimiliard]

Oh, I would agree that smuggling contracts, hidden exchanges, the ability to access an exchange that rep should have closed to you, and other similar (and discussed) things would feel even more "smuggler-ey". You're 100% on that OldAlchy.

But those would be a lot of coding, which I'm trying to find a way to help Cory avoid since there's always the normal updates he does and all the new work he's doing on CK. (which I have to say I'm liking the look of)

I only brought up decreasing rep loss due to embargo breaking because it seemed like it would be similar (code-wise) to the pirate's rep-gain ability for hitting merchants in Trade Wars. I figured that implied there was probably already a batch of code that linked rep and Trade Wars, so perhaps it could be re-used to link Embargoes and rep-loss. Code re-use being much more developer friendly than needing to write new code.

So I thought it might be a way to achieve the desire to feel like a law-breaker while not making Cory do as much work as the other routes.

(as for not getting permits or rank, while I agree that rank shouldn't be needed without permits it would be difficult to fulfill the current smuggler paradigm of "Your class trades in restricted goods" wouldn't it?)

I do have to admit that I sort of enjoy wandering around gathering up contraband for my cache so that I can sell it to a shortage later. My only grievance is that it doesn't feel like smuggling, it feels more like competant merchanting instead. After all, with permits and such it's all above-board and completely legal. And while, "I will make it legal" works for Palpatine and the Trade Federation in Star Wars I don't think I'd hold them up as an example of smuggling.

-abs

{edit} Crap, forgot to mention that negotiation and stealth seem like an excellent pair of skills to tie "evade rep loss" to. I totally should have thought of the stealth aspect. *smacks forehead* Guess I could've had a V8. (all you younguns' won't get that, but five to one odds say OldAlchemist will . . . ) {/edit}

[Cory Trese]

How about this ...

- Remove the requirement for permits to trade illegal stuff EVERYWHERE
- Dialog Box Before Trade "You do not have a Trade Permit. You Risk Extreme Reputation Loss for this HIGHLY ILLEGAL trade. Continue?"
- Intimidation and Negotiation combine to reduce this illegal reputation penalty (vs. Prince and Security Rating of Urban Zone)
- Smuggler Records ability is now tied to illegal trades / trade with independents
- Smuggler special ability increases Intim/Nego roll vs. Prince/Sec
- Selling Trade Goods to Independents risks reputation loss with ALL FACTIONS that the Captain does not hold a Trade Permit with (illegal enough for you?)

[Tenebrous Pirate]

I like...

[absimiliard]

Hrmmm. Let me think on this a bit.....

So early on in a smuggler's life they'll probably be buying against the law, and presumably buying pardons, and selling against the law (either to Indeps of Factions). This might or might not be profitable depending on whether or not they get the Records, so there's some uncertainty in it.

Okay, early game definitely feels illegal. I'm not sure how the balance of the pardon/profit will run, but hell, risk is part of the fun. Maybe you make a profit pissing off DeValtos by buying those Artifacts and selling them at Rift Leporis, or maybe you just lose rep. Since it'll depend on your skills it definitely rewards advancement and focus on smuggler skills. (Intim. & Nego.)

Late game you can get the permits, but then you'll lose the records creating ability since said trade won't be illegal. AND, said records should now be created fairly often since it's tied to skills that you should be increasing. (Nego. & Tactics if it's like the Merchant's ability, yes?) So you're still incentivized to trade illegally instead of getting the permits.

And you're not just trading restricted goods either, provided the "trade goods" sold to Indeps includes non-restricted goods. Normal folks won't care as much, since they'll be getting permits. And since buying isn't restricted you aren't penalizing people picking up water-fuel, etc., from Indep worlds, just people selling to them. But smugglers would still be incentivized (I hate that word, sorry I used it folks) to trade illegally with no permits since it creates Records. And merchants with their cheaper permits will bypass this one right quick, as is appropriate, and others a little slower but it'll still happen.

Yeah, that might do it. Sorry for thinking "aloud" at you, but I think it might work out well. It keeps smugglers wanting to be illegal traders instead of going legit, which I like, but doesn't seem to penalize the other classes who would want to be picking up permits anyway. And if a smuggler does want to "go legit" they could always just forgo their class ability to create Records with illegal trade and buy the permits, at the cost of lower profit margins.

I think I'm with TB. It's sounding good. How much work would that be Cory? Too much given your other stuff at the moment?

(if you want me to do some testing feel free to shoot me a link and I'll happily kill a few smuggler captains looking for results to send you)

-abs

{edit} I also like that trading in restricted goods with no permit is possible, it gives yet another way for people to lose rep and go under. And I do believe that the nasty lethality of the world is one of the draws for ST: RPG. {/edit}

[HateSolstice]

XD Yes, that sounds illegal enough. Perhaps we can get bounties on our heads too! Wait, that's already in the game isn't it? Either way, this is definitely sounding more like a smuggler. I also like how you risk even more if you don't hold trade permits at all.

I approve of your idea there, Cory. Like I said, I knew my ideas weren't really the best way to go. =P

[boeu]

Remind me not to be a smuggler lol