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Post by Gr8Scott on Feb 28, 2014 14:24:44 GMT -5
Short version: get rid of "Piety Ward" and add an armor protection spell similar to "Pureflame Shield"
In most RPG worlds the Cleric is the master of divine protections for the party. Most Cleric builds are kind of vanilla but the value to the party is in Healing/Protection spells. The Cleric is usually not as well armored or damage causing as a fighter and not as Individually well protected (mirror image/ spell shield) and damage causing as a mage. Kyera falls nicely into this category in that she doesn't have individual shield/ defense buffs, has no 'Ferocity' equivalent, and Holy Retribution/Banishment are either slightly less damage or more Spirit Points than the Mage spells.
With that being said, I feel she should have a better Party Defense buff than Piety Shield which provides only magic resistance. Kjartan's Pureflame Shield qualities of improving both physical armor and magic resistance is exactly what the cleric should have in her Divine Spell list. Kjartan should have the lesser effective Magic resistance only spell to stack on Kyera's. I think I would rather use both Sorcerer and Mage especially since the Sorcerer can Melee skirmish effectively in addition to his spells especially with the improved armor and resistance buff from the mage. The cleric should have the option to protect the party in all ways better than a mage. Mages do the enemy stripping, damage inducing spells. They also usually have an individual protection that may protect the party at higher levels, but the main protections (Armor, Resistance, parry, dodge, remove curse, heal) should be more effective coming from the cleric- especially "good" clerics- and if the Paladin is the optional character here it seems that Kyera falls in that category.
Call it "Aura of Protection" or something. The Cleric is the party support character and her build is determined by who else is in the party. Focus on Melee with Ranged archer and mage, Focus on healing or spell damage with melee sorcerer and rogue. The cleric usually gives up individual buffs for the party. In other words, every other character's individual buff is stacked with the cleric's, but the cleric has only the Party buff on herself. I think this one of my frustrations when playing Vincent- no Armor buff in the party.
I think the Ethereal Anguish spell get's it right in that it is the only AoE crippling spell the cleric has and it is about 2/3 as effective as the Sorcerer's Flash Freeze. I think the mage's pureflame shield should be about 2/3 as effective as the cleric's Armor protection Spell - beginning individually and extending to the party at lvl 3, say. Or simply make it a magic shield. It would expect the upcoming Paladin to have a similar protection spell that would not be as good as the cleric's and probably begins individually with group buff at later levels. Why take a cleric when you have healing potions available? Because She owns the party protections divinely.
I finished Act 1 Ep 1 with Vincent and thought it was just drudgery continually taking enemy turns away(Flash Freeze/Ethereal Anguish) with both the cleric and sorcerer then having to heal with potions/Myshanas tears. With no "choking ash/pureflame shield" available fights seemed to last forever- one of those skirmishes with the Ratkin lasted an hour. Any suggestions on Vince/Kyera coordination?
Rant over. Thanks for listening.
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Post by fallen on Feb 28, 2014 14:29:59 GMT -5
Gr8Scott - thanks for the feedback, I'll take a look at the talent to ensure it is balanced within the design. Every character brings different strengths and weaknesses to the table, that is the point. Episode 2 is full of elemental damage at every turn, so you may find it more useful. Have you tried Warder's Shield? EDIT: also, you have yet to face a monster that causes Unholy / Death damage, from which Pureflame cannot protect you. Very easy to underestimate the value that Piety Ward will bring later in the game when you have only seen E1.
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Post by Gr8Scott on Feb 28, 2014 15:02:01 GMT -5
True. I have not had the need in Ep 1 for Piety Shield and don't know what's coming later. I do find a need for a Cleric Armor buff at least early in the game.
I would think that Eventually Kyera will be mostly magic/ less melee and that Selen and Vincent would make a better party down the road with better melee skills.
Off topic: Will there be an option to start Ep 2 fresh? IE. Pick Characters and Apply 9 attributes, 14 skils, 10 Talents (or whatever those exact numbers would be). As large as the game is and long as it takes to play Ep 1, I would hate to think I would have to start Ep 1 all over again to play Ep 2 or Ep 3 with a different combination of characters. It would give an opportunity to start Ep 2 and answer questions like, "What if I maxed out Phalanx Shield for Vraes, or Natural Mastery in Ep 1?" I would like to see what a level 17 Outlander looks like with Ferocity built up as opposed to natural mastery and then play through episode one. Or Stealthy thief vs. open Melee skills; Divine cleric, Melee cleric, etc.
I also would hate to have to play through all 6,000 hours of all the episodes to try the Dueler with Selen to get to the last Episode, when I could just the last episode with a new party. LOL. Great game thanks for all the detail and hours of fun.
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Post by fallen on Feb 28, 2014 17:48:59 GMT -5
Gr8Scott - currently, we don't have any plan to let you skip ahead to different Episodes. Throughout, you're making choices that will branch the end game story, so that becomes pretty complicated. As well as gear, weapons, armor, etc. We may eventually look around at reset option for your groups that would let you rebuild from scratch mid-game, but that would only be after Episode 4 is released.
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Post by Gr8Scott on Feb 28, 2014 19:35:13 GMT -5
Gr8Scott - thanks for the feedback, I'll take a look at the talent to ensure it is balanced within the design. Every character brings different strengths and weaknesses to the table, that is the point. Episode 2 is full of elemental damage at every turn, so you may find it more useful. Have you tried Warder's Shield? EDIT: also, you have yet to face a monster that causes Unholy / Death damage, from which Pureflame cannot protect you. Very easy to underestimate the value that Piety Ward will bring later in the game when you have only seen E1. After looking at Pureflame Shield it offers 38 Resistance plus all that Armor protection @ lvl 10 vs Piety Ward 36 Resistance. IMO the Mage should have the resistance only spell and the Cleric the Armor/Resistance Spell. This seems to make more sense in that the Cleric buffs the party then the party has to decide how best to use the remaining Spirit Points-Melee Smiting Blow, Ranged Holy Retribution, Major Healing, or Sacrifice to Outlander/Rogue. It just seems the better party protections should be with the cleric while having less damaging(IE Firestorm vs Banishment)/ debuff spells(IE Ethereal Anguish vs.Flash Freeze), Better damage/ debuffs with the mage will lesser party protections. When I am able to get to lvl 18+ I will likely complain about Vincents Elemental Sundering not being as powerful as Banishment. Again, just my opinion, and also at lower levels of a massive game. Thanks for listening.
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Post by fallen on Feb 28, 2014 19:49:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback! I'll keep looking, but the Talent layout fits the game design and I cannot see moving either of these Talents or changing their core idea.
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 1, 2014 3:16:05 GMT -5
Sorry -- this isn't a fair comparison. Piety ward is 36 ALL and Pureflame is 38 ELEMENTAL.
The gap between those is Death Magic and Unholy Magic -- and the different in value between Pureflame and Piety Ward in late game in some zones is HUGE.
=)
PS: welcome to the forum!
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 1, 2014 3:40:49 GMT -5
Cory Trese & fallenJust a thought that this conversation and others have brought up... While the two of you have the overall vision and can see how various Attributes, Skills and Talents can/will factor into things later on. We the gamers only have Episode 1 currently to work with. Unfortunately what may be a very effective team build/character build for E1 may be way off target for later parts of the game. You may want to consider making some adjustments to a few scenarios in E1 that get players used to the idea that they might be better served with a different strategy that will keep them effective throughout the entire epic and not just E1 juggernauts. Examples are let me see the kinds of damage I'm taking from different types. Did that shaman just hit me with fire? Ice? Unholy? Maybe I need to start doing things to build my resistance to those types attacks. A few locks and traps that require more than a level 1 skill to deal with may get people thinking hey I just can't ignore security and the relitive talents. I think many of us are very focused on how effecient a killing machine we create. While not bad, it just may be very sub-optimal going forward into E2 and beyond.
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 1, 2014 4:12:46 GMT -5
Cory Trese & fallenJust a thought that this conversation and others have brought up... While the two of you have the overall vision and can see how various Attributes, Skills and Talents can/will factor into things later on. We the gamers only have Episode 1 currently to work with. Unfortunately what may be a very effective team build/character build for E1 may be way off target for later parts of the game. You may want to consider making some adjustments to a few scenarios in E1 that get players used to the idea that they might be better served with a different strategy that will keep them effective throughout the entire epic and not just E1 juggernauts. Examples are let me see the kinds of damage I'm taking from different types. Did that shaman just hit me with fire? Ice? Unholy? Maybe I need to start doing things to build my resistance to those types attacks. A few locks and traps that require more than a level 1 skill to deal with may get people thinking hey I just can't ignore security and the relitive talents. I think many of us are very focused on how effecient a killing machine we create. While not bad, it just may be very sub-optimal going forward into E2 and beyond. Nope, don't worry at all. We're building the game with the players in mind, and playing the progression ourselves from start to finish over and over. We're also collecting anonymous metrics, saved games and lots of information from the forum and e-mail. I have seen a few scattered posts, and I'm glad to report that they're not a valid concern with the existing mitigation strategies. As you say -- you the gamers have Episode 1 which is designed to prepare you for Act 1 of Episode 2, which is designed to prepare you for Act 2 of Episode 2. If you have an effective build for Episode 1, it will work in Episode 2. If you do not pay attention in Episode 2, like you did in Episode 1 (to make your effective build) then you will not have an effective Episode 2 build. But, of course, you are correct about one of the strategies we are using -- as you explore episode 1 you will now find several new elemental damage types, a few random episode 2 AI types, and some new talents from bosses. The security talents will become more critical in Episode 3, so pushing people to spend more than a few points on them in Episode 1 isn't part of the big picture plan.
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Outsider
Exemplar
It is always better to hit, than to miss harder.
Posts: 301
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Post by Outsider on Mar 1, 2014 8:30:19 GMT -5
Great discussion here xdesperado and Cory. Found this thread very helpful after all.
Thanks!
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Post by algesan on Mar 1, 2014 9:42:00 GMT -5
I'll note that Kyera's Warder spell is superior to an armor buff. Dodge > Parry > Armor. With Selen's self buff + Warder she becomes a tank that arguably is as good as Vraes in melee & definitely better vs. ranged. Not getting hit >> ability to soak damage.
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Post by fallen on Mar 1, 2014 15:57:48 GMT -5
Agreed - Warder's Shield is the buff for which you are seeking. The Cleric will not receive a +Armor buff.
We play the game a lot and 0% of the builds that I completed E1 with became obsolete with E2. They had to adapt, and I had to change my tactics multiple times throughout the Episode, but none stopped dead-in-the-water.
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Post by Gr8Scott on Mar 1, 2014 18:57:03 GMT -5
Glad to see all the interaction on this thread. I used Warders Shield lvl3 in my Vincent, Selen run through that frustrated me. I am starting a Vincent, Tamilin game focusing more on individual buffs earlier With Warders Shield on the group to see if this helps make things any less frustrating.
Also what is in the "All" category of Piety Shield that is not elemental that makes it a huge advantage? Holy Damage and what else?
I do trust the game creators on the whole balance issue. I am just having difficulty with a couple of party mix options. I also think I am missing some of the more subtle elements incorporated into the game which is why I really appreciate this site. thanks to all for the input and comments.
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Post by fallen on Mar 1, 2014 19:06:39 GMT -5
Gr8Scott - in All vs. Elemental, you are talking about Unholy Resistance.
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Post by Gr8Scott on Mar 7, 2014 15:10:37 GMT -5
Gr8Scott - in All vs. Elemental, you are talking about Unholy Resistance. Considering Episode 1 reveals about the enemy Unholy damage likely could be huge by the end of the game. I played Ep1 Act1 with Tamilin and Vincent focused more on other defensive spells and did alright. I suppose my "drudgery" comment was simply the length of battles with out the use of Choking Ash to soften the enemy up. Every battle just took much longer to hit those darn Giant rats/ Shamen/ Beetles etc. Selen also has an armor stripping attack (Punishing blades) along with a Defense stripper (Pinning Shot) which makes for even quicker dispatching of armored enemies. I can see where this all evens out down the road with Piety Ward being indispensable by the cleric in later battles. And armor being less of an issue. Thanks for all the input.
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