Party Choices

[algesan]

Editorializing.  If I indulge in
hyperbole or exaggerating my personal preferences, deal with it. 
Yes, I'm sure every party combo is viable and each character has more
than one viable build, but obviously some will be weaker than others,
like a stabby Vincent with a 1AP Light Blade built around Storm
Strike....he needs a Spirit potion IV in his jugular with a tanker
following him around... and he'd still run out of Spirit. 

This is also relevant for up to the end
of A1E2 (or is it E1A2(?)), which is where we are now.  Which
limits the number of actual practical builds to player preference
because the current content only allows you to build the base that
will carry onwards as you get the other ~70%+ Stat/Skill/Talent
points available to finish the game. Rabbit trails are now
open.

HoS is the classic fantasy party of Fighter, Mage,
Cleric, Thief...well, sort of, the "actual" classic when I
started playing D&D was Fighter, Mage, Cleric and we didn't have
no stinking Thieves messing around....

Anyway, we are looking
at four base characters (F,M,C,T = Vraes, Kj, Ky, Tami) and four
alternate characters (F',M',C',T' = Kincaid, Vincent, Girl Pally
who's name starts with a F(?), Selen) for a potential total of 16
potential parties...although not all parties are created equal. 
Currently we have only 4 of them available....which brings up another
issue.  The "Plan" (TM) appears to be to alternate
content with second character releases in some order.  I'd have
preferred to all four characters released...if not first then prior
to the next oncoming content release.  Why?  Because we are
supposed to be getting 4 blocks of content expansion. 
Currently, we have one complete block and, at most 4 ways to play
(IMO, only two ways) currently.  If we had another toon, that
would make it 8 ways potentially and if the fourth toon, 16 ways. 
If we get another content block (a good thing!), it is still only 4
ways potentially.

Vraes (F) has a couple of different options,
but since the character actually has a core required Talent that
everything else works with and makes every other Talent he has works
better, pretty much a straight Mastery build is best.  Yeah, we
can make a song and dance about all kinds of variations and useful
Talents, but they will end up boiling down to playstyle, but in the
end a very high, if not maxed Mastery Vraes will be what is best to
play.  So, for all regular purposes, we have one practical Vraes
build with every or almost every Talent point spent in Mastery. 

Another reason for this...TB are still
tweaking stuff and there will probably be changes in the various
enhanced attacks and such, but Mastery at this point with its linear
progression from a low base and relatively expensive Spirit cost
appears about where it should be.  Lowering the effect would be
difficult and raising the cost to discourage it would have other long
term implications.

Don't bother bragging on your XYZ
build...my point is that in another dozen or so levels, I'll have
your XYZ build and be doing it better than you (because Vraes hits
more and gets hit less) because I have maxed Mastery.  Get the
foundation laid first.  One variant that seems potentially
useful now is a Dex version that sacrifices the offensive bonus of
Str for the best defensive bonus, Dodge. Since there have been
comments from TB and in game that better weapons will require Str
mins, that may cause an issuse later, but for now, it doesn't. One
build with a potential Stat variant.

Kyera (C), like Vraes has
a couple of different options, but as long as you get a decent level
(4, IMO) of MT (heal spell) and at least half the rest in Warder's,
you are good. The heal is self explanatory, it is what a Cleric
does. Warder's again, is what a Cleric does, in this case by
limiting the damage done to the party requiring her heals. The other
variations are like other variations of Vraes, something tacked on
that can be done now or in the next levels. However, by neglecting
these two core skills, which should take up the bulk of her Talent
points to 17th level, then she will be less efficient at her basic
party function. A bit extra in other skills are a fun little
preference. Again, one build.



Kjartan (M) has a couple of variations,
mainly debuffer, buffer or nuker. Pretty much he can “major” in
one and “minor” in another. He can actually do all three barely
in the current content, but it will be more of a flexible build and
not a specialized one. Flexible is better give the way SP costs rise
on high level talents. For the early going, debuffing and buffing
are more efficient because they enhance the entire party's damage
output and defenses. As a side benefit, Choking Ash at 4/5 helps
Kjartan with low level nukes since these have a higher physical
component to their damage, which means -Armor debuffs help greatly.
However, a few levels in Choking Ash, a few levels (at least three)
in Burning Blades, the starting level in Pureflame (hey, it's cheap
and gives ~+1.5 Armor some elemental resist) and some levels in a
nuke work. Here also comes the first benefit of party dynamics, in a
group with Selen, some of these bets go off since Selen can take up
the debuffing duties and a more nuclear Kjartan becomes real
interesting. So, Kjartan has several build choices, mainly based on
whether or not Selen (T') or Tami(T) are in the group.



Tamilin (T) pretty much boils down to
ranged DPS with a main focus in Deadly Intuition and maybe some
levels in Aimed Shot and/or some of her buffs. Again, trivial
variations that will disappear a few levels into the next content
release. One build.



Vincent (M') has a bunch of builds
possible, but nuker (fryer(?)) with a side order of Thundering Blades
& Flash Freeze/Frigid Air at the core pretty much makes for one
build. Also, unfortunately, the loss of C. Ash degrades the entire
party, so not only is it variations around one build, it is best with
Selen only.



Selen (T') has the best of the bunch as
far as variety since she can more readily tailor for a party mission
throwing her points about just a little bit doesn't hurt her at all
since she has a number of Talents that can be useful at low levels.
One discussion is a “bow” vs. a “blade” Selen. Sure, a bow
using, Dodge & Parry debuffing Selen can be built, but
Quicksilver Defense works like Mastery does for Vraes, it is simply a
skill that is going to be maxed, so after dropping a few Talent
points elsewhere (Frenzied, Punishing & maybe Pinning), why not
focus on QD?

As I noted Selen's real build
variations come from who the caster is. With Vincent, Selen replaces
the -Armor lost by not having Kjartan and though with Kjartan, Selen
can bloom into a death dealing blade dervish as well as giving that
little bit of extra debuff for bosses (and ROUS), the need to pump QD
for a melee build holds even more and the current content is just
about laying the foundation. So, two similar builds, depending on
which Mage the party uses. The dervish of death version is more of a
hopeful build that won't mature for several more levels.



Given the above the actual decent
parties for use on NM currently:
FMCT
FM'CT'
With a possiblity of FMCT', although
that would play a lot like FMCT.



Depending on what the Pally looks like
exactly...but I'm thinking replacing the C with the C' in the above
will be the net effect.

[xdesperado]

Hate to disagree with you but I'm really wishing I'd not raised Vraes Natural Mastery to 2.
First level was +2 so it is a good investment for very low SP cost. Getting another +1 for the extra SP expendature feels like a waste to me at this point. Another level of Crushing Blow would/will give me another +1 to hit and raise my potential damage output.
Choice of weapons/gear, the role you intend him to fill and your party dynamics are all factors in making him successful. All those things can lead to very different builds being very effective.

Now that my Blades skill is maxed out and his Strength is getting there he may well require a future boost in Natural Mastery to consistantly hit tougher opponents, but with Selen's Pinning Shot 5 degrading most enemies defenses along with Kjartan's Choking Ash and Kyera's Ethereal Anguish actually hitting targets isn't a major issue. Actually doing significant damage with each of those hits is a bit more of a challenge which is why I would have preffered at least one of my NM talent raises had gone to Crushing Blow instead.

Big thing is it comes down to party dynamics, strategy and prefered play style.
I have my preferences with my current party build and have developed fairly solid tactics to get the most out of it. Others I'm sure would/will disagree on how I've put it together but it works great for me so far.

With my build Vraes roll is that of a tank. He's suppossed to present enough of a threat that most if not all the enemies focus their attention on him. While he is capable and happy to kill things that's not his main mission. Getting the bad guys focused on him frees up Selen and Kjartan to deal most of the damage. Vraes and Kyera mainly play clean-up after them. The other thing is after the first turn where I try to de-buff as many opponents as possible, they all tend to work together as a team taking down targets one at a time. Having four characters spread their damage between a dozen different targets each turn isn't efficient and allows for more potential attacks against them. Reducing enemy numbers as quickly as possible leads to shorter fights and less SP expendature.

Just my own two cents.

[algesan]

Oh, it is all about party & personal choice. I skipped over a lot of the math I compared, but in your case, NM2 costs you 12 or 4 more than NM1. The same price as one use of CB3...

If you look at NM10, then one cast of it, lasting for 10 turns is the equivalent expenditure of using CB5 to swing 10 times, which depending on your weapons could drain mana even, faster.

[xdesperado]

I'm at CB5 currently with Vraes so yes going to CB6 instead of NM2 is less than one swings difference in SP.
That said I'm still pretty much forced to either rest after each fight or get a potion for Vraes mainly because of his Stone Skin 5. Also with my tactics Vraes will almost always be the last member of the party to attack as he is working to clean-up after the others, finishing off the most damaged and moving to engage the nearest enemy. Because of that he generally makes fewer attacks than the rest as Selen and Kjartan will often finish off the last few opponents in a fight.

My point though was that Natural Mastery is not a must have Talent and I personally find it a bit overrated. You can get both Accuracy and Parry bonuses elsewhere.
The ones doing the most consistent damage to him currently are Archers because he has a fairly low Dodge/Evasion which NM doesn't help. One of the overlooked benefits of Burst of Speed is the Dodge Bonus it provides which will help him against Archers the extra MP is nice for getting into position at times but often he is basically holding a set position in the midst of combat with enemies clustering around him making movement sort of irrelevant.

Now if I was using a 2H weapon or Dual Weilding the extra melee defense from NM might be ofmore interest to me. Currently have Captain Lukais Blade and Spiked Shield equiped which gives him a pretty decent Parry base. At level 15 and getting ready to head up the stairs to the Gatehouse level and would say probably 75%+ of melee attacks are missing him/getting parried currently.

[algesan]

xdesperado - I'm not trying to indulge in a urination contest here, I'm making observations.  Remember we are discussing our 17th levels in a ~64 level game, so our characters are still relative noobies if not total n00bs in a manner of speaking.  At the end of the game, there will be a certain commonality in character builds, particularly the more efficient ones.  IMO, they tend to cluster around one or two Talents for each character with other options building from that, although depending on the toon, it could be different Talents for different party roles.  In Vraes case, I see Mastery as one of those two Talents for every single build.

Why do I find Mastery to be "all that"?  NM10 provides 11 levels to weapon skill, which translates into 3.3 more successes on offence and defence with the +5 accuracy giving a further 1.5 offence successes (on average).  Wow, big deal, right?
Consider that max weapon skill itself only gives 4.8 success (again, on average) for offence and defence. 
Contrast that to CB10 which gives 2.5 offence and about 24 more damage on average. 
Contrast that to SS10 which gives 7.5 offence and about 10 more damage on average.
You get four swings with either one of those for the cost of a NM10 buff.

I did a couple builds somewhat similar to yours, but not nearly so tightly focused in my early games, that I've since deleted.  A lot of the conditions have changed that would have made those builds more viable now, but they would still be mana hogs.  Both of my NM Vraes, with NM10+SS2 and NM8+SS4 are simply in a different pattern of growth to yours which will end up in the same place.  One thing that turned me towards the modest little buff that is relatively expensive to cast was my ongoing SP costs.

My Vraes are both tanks also, I just chose to focus on building the buff before the attack.  Both of them spent most of their time doing a beatdown with the basic attack.  I also don't consider them anywhere near "finished".  They both need some more buff Talents, although at this point I'll probably forget about the higher level melee talents in favor of solid meatshields.  One reason I call this the "one build";  I didn't have to worry too much about my Spirit costs on the way up and now that these guys are almost max Str, points on Dex and Int become available to pump my Dodge and mana pool to support enhanced attacks.

[slayernz]

Haha ... the mere fact you spent that much time writing out your thoughts was fantastic and awesome and all sorts of good stuff. As I read through the thread, I definitely will try and avoid the puddles of liquid here and there, but in general, it's great to see HOW you are developing your party builds, and what you think is critical. Yes, the game will probably end with you having level 64 characters, which probably means you get at least 40 talent points to distribute throughout that time.

I'm so used to the "classic 4" (Vraes, Shifty Eyes, Kyera and Tami) that I have found it very difficult taking other party combinations into the game. For me, Vraes is my tank, and everyone else deals with ranged damage. In fact, in almost every combat situation I find myself in, only Vraes is ever attacked. The rest of the party is standing one or two squares back, and dealing death to all and sundry. I've even tried one game where only Vraes gets armor upgrades. The rest of the party are still wearing their original armor. Yes, I know there will be some levels ahead that will result in ambushes and other multi-character pain, but I'll deal with them as they arise.

[fallen]

algesan - great post! +1 for sharing your strategies!