Episode 2: The Gathering Shadow

[Gr8Scott]

John Robinson suggested I post this PM I sent to him here regarding our "problem child" Kyera. Especially after the above posts regarding the new challenges in EP 2:

I still don't know where to go with my cleric.  Banishment seems like the eventual way to go which means investing in Invocation and Conjuring.  That means Holy Retribution should be the main offensive investment early.  However with the original party- Tamilin, Kjartan- Hammer, Strength, and Smite seem to be more important to help Vraes with front line support.  From the EP2 blog, it looks like everyone will need the ability to Melee effectively from time to time, so Hammer, Strength lends itself to that area.  Then again, I think Kyera can only wear light armor and has only party buffs on her, so who knows how protected she will actually end up in EP3 & 4?  It would seem by building Warders Shield, Piety Ward (with Unholy damage protection), healing, and Ethereal Anguish (to minimize enemies attacks, especially without Vince) there isn't room to invest in both.  The cleric is always party support and her build seems to be dictated more by the party then by arbitrarily how you want her to develop.

I am starting over with original party and working the Smite, Warders shield build with her now.  Would a Holy Retribution, Warders Shield build with points in Staff/Dex be effective or spread her to thin to do any damage in either melee or divinely?  Dex would help defense some as well, but I am not sure if staff's are a viable offensive weapon even with Smite 3 to make sure you can hit & damage opponents.  Also can't see this build with Kjartan as Staff is not a purchasable weapon.   Since you are further along, but not finished the game (LOL), any cleric build thoughts are appreciated. So far I think Kjartan, Kyera is the best divine mix of protection and Selen is the best offensive thief with melee skills, individual protections & buffs.  I like Paladins with Clerics so my fear is the Paladin in place of the Cleric will boost melee but further hurt party protections.  I am interested to see the Paladin's talents when it comes out

[Gr8Scott]

Mar 12, 2014 23:03:10 GMT -5 Swami said:

Mar 12, 2014 22:50:54 GMT -5 vdx said:

Sure, point out my typos... corrected. Thanks. :-)

I like the whole board looking like we are quite literate. Maybe I should go through and delete my corrections messages.

I can't game today.  I have the dumb. (walks away with head down knowing he doesn't quite fit in)

[contributor]

I have a few thoughts on cleric from playing on Brutal and Nightmare. I will admit though the one thing I've never done is try a cleric with serious offensive magic. I've dabbled in it but always regretted putting those points in there and not somewhere else. I would have to completely rethink a party to do that.

So the choice for me is between melee and serious buffer/debuffer. I think in the long run, if you wanted to dabble in offensive magic, I think it would be better to start out with a healer/buffer cleric and then add magic in later, when you start getting some +Holy Damage gear.

With a healer/debuffer, I would completely neglect any offensive/defensive skills and put everything into conjuring/intelligence and lore. Later you'll want to build up whatever it is that gives you resistance against magical attacks and/or dexterity, but in episode 1 you should always protect her through positioning and or armor/shield/weapon parry. My current party has Kyera with Warder's shield 6 and the party is level 14/15. WS is wonderful for protecting your whole party and combined with Selen's Quicksilver Defense and Dexterity skill you can make her into a second tank/damage blocker for those ambush situations. In this party I'm using Vincent's Flash Freeze and Selen's Pinning Shot to get -AP and therefore not putting points into Kyera's Ethereal Anguish yet. This party is serious about doinking enemies AP, which makes them able to really survive in combat. I'm also using Kyera's Sacrifice skill (level 1) to keep Vraes and Selen pounding away. With Kyera doing WS and debuffs to enemy Dodge/Parry from Pinning Shot, Flash Freeze and Ethereal Anguish (1). The rest of the team is durable and can also focus on high damage outputs. Approaching EP 2 I have to decide if I want to start dropping points into Piety Shield, bring WS all the way up to 10 or invest in Banishment to give Kyera some punch. I haven't decided yet.

With melee Kyera you have to get some buffs from others in the party and I would recommend using Kjartan as Vincent's debuffs are not all the powerful. If you use Choking Ash and combine it with Pinning Shot you can probably make her a pretty competent damage dealer. It would seem then like you would have to probably alternate Strength and Constitution and then maybe one other buff/debuff plus healing. If you're using Selen with Pinning Shot maybe focus on Warder's Shield for the team, if not, maybe focus on Ethereal Anguish to get a -AP dealer. Bring Myshana's tears up to 3 for E1 and 4 for E2 and then alternate Smite and the buff/debuff that you've chosen.

@xdesparado has some groups going where everybody is basically doing all offense and not worrying about buffs/debuffs much. This would be one way to use Kyera's magical attacks, but is also very SP intensive and leads to lots of camping.

At the end of the day, I think, the best builds are those that do one thing very well and then maybe have one secondary strength. Trying to do too much with one person always leads to weaker character. Chose one attribute/skill to bring all the way up in episode 1 with maybe a few points in a secondary and chose 2 or 3 talents to bring up for each character. Each character needs to have one major role to play. You do need to develop a secondary tank too. That could be Selen with sky high dodge (most of my recent parties) or a tanky Kyera.

[Outsider]

Great insight lurker! +1 That's pretty close to how my group is setup as well. Kyera currently has Rk 7 WS, Rk 1 Sacrifice, Rk 4 MT, Rk 1 PB, and Rk 4 EA. She cleanses, heals, buffs, debuffs, and keeps the meat grinders going with Sacrifice.

I don't think I'd change this build for her, keep her safe in the rear with the gear. By saving my points from offense I've maxed out Lore and currently get 26SP per cast of Sacrifice for 10SP. I won't rank this talent up further because the next rank costs +10SP to cast and you gain only 8 more SP on the other side, therefore losing SP. Maybe that'll change down the road.

Maxed out Lore also has the side benefit of empowered healing making Kyera the ultimate support character and very focused on that role.

[Gr8Scott]

Thanks Lurker & Outsider for your responses. I cant find a way for Holy Retribution to be effective and your posts skip that as well. I cant seem to not play EP1 without Warders Shield and Smite at lvl 3. Especially with Tamilin & Kjartan. Tamilin can Melee but she's built for ranged damage. With the original party, it seems EP2 requires EA & PW to be built. Since her main focus should be healing, I end up with too many secondary functions for her.

I am enjoying my Selen, Kjartan party. Adding Tamilin or Vince keep me scratching my head though. My Tamilin & Vince party wasn't bad after I got a decent Vince build. I had difficulty with the purchase of EP 2 so I uninstalled-reinstalled and lost my saved games. Thought they would be in a separate folder, but looks like that a coming feature. I will be killing more dirty rats before experiencing EP2. They just wont be experiencing Holy Retribution this time around.

[Swami]

Mar 15, 2014 6:39:12 GMT -5 Gr8Scott said:

Mar 12, 2014 23:03:10 GMT -5 Swami said:

I like the whole board looking like we are quite literate. Maybe I should go through and delete my corrections messages.

I can't game today.  I have the dumb. (walks away with head down knowing he doesn't quite fit in)

Heh.

[fallen]

Thanks for the continued commentary on Holy Retribution. The new changes to monsters that are "Weak vs." will help is shine better in some situations, but I think its 3 AP cost still demands that it is a more powerful spell than it is today.

[Outsider]

Mar 15, 2014 12:01:13 GMT -5 Gr8Scott said:

Thanks Lurker & Outsider for your responses. I cant find a way for Holy Retribution to be effective and your posts skip that as well. I cant seem to not play EP1 without Warders Shield and Smite at lvl 3. Especially with Tamilin & Kjartan. Tamilin can Melee but she's built for ranged damage. With the original party, it seems EP2 requires EA & PW to be built. Since her main focus should be healing, I end up with too many secondary functions for her.

I am enjoying my Selen, Kjartan party. Adding Tamilin or Vince keep me scratching my head though. My Tamilin & Vince party wasn't bad after I got a decent Vince build. I had difficulty with the purchase of EP 2 so I uninstalled-reinstalled and lost my saved games. Thought they would be in a separate folder, but looks like that a coming feature. I will be killing more dirty rats before experiencing EP2. They just wont be experiencing Holy Retribution this time around.

I'd tend to agree with you using Kyera as an off-tank with the Kjartan and Tami group. I've found you need an off-tank unless you're gonna bottle neck everything in E2 and that is how I built Kyera when I played her using the original group format. Gave her CON/INT primarily and a little strength using the talents WS, Smite, and MT. She can hold her own, no doubt.

I've not leveled a group with Kyera using PW into E2 yet, though I do have one on standby through E1. I have Kyera using Piety Ward, Myshanas Tears, and Holy Retribution as a damage dealer setup. In that group I'm using Vincent to handle the -AP duties to compensate and his buff helps her out with some +hit, I can't overstate the importance of the -AP debuff though! Especially used on ranged units while you close in and kill them. Saved many a caster with that in E2.

I don't like using Vincent and Selen together, Kjartan's Choking Ash and Burning Blades (crit buff) talents compliment Selen too well (current group's setup).

[John Robinson]

Mar 15, 2014 7:23:07 GMT -5 contributor said:

At the end of the day, I think, the best builds are those that do one thing very well and then maybe have one secondary strength. Trying to do too much with one person always leads to weaker character. Chose one attribute/skill to bring all the way up in episode 1 with maybe a few points in a secondary and chose 2 or 3 talents to bring up for each character. Each character needs to have one major role to play. You do need to develop a secondary tank too. That could be Selen with sky high dodge (most of my recent parties) or a tanky Kyera.

After playing a few hours in the Episode 2 cult pit. The old saying of "If I knew then what I know now" really hit home.
I have reached the exact same conclusion. You have condensed advice we can all benefit from in so few words.
My advice to any player out there is to pay close attention to this nugget of wisdom contributor has provided.

[Officer Genious]

Mar 15, 2014 12:47:48 GMT -5 John Robinson said:

Mar 15, 2014 7:23:07 GMT -5 contributor said:

At the end of the day, I think, the best builds are those that do one thing very well and then maybe have one secondary strength. Trying to do too much with one person always leads to weaker character. Chose one attribute/skill to bring all the way up in episode 1 with maybe a few points in a secondary and chose 2 or 3 talents to bring up for each character. Each character needs to have one major role to play. You do need to develop a secondary tank too. That could be Selen with sky high dodge (most of my recent parties) or a tanky Kyera.

After playing a few hours in the Episode 2 cult pit. The old saying of "If I knew then what I know now" really hit home.
I have reached the exact same conclusion. You have condensed advice we can all benefit from in so few words.
My advice to any player out there is to pay close attention to this nugget of wisdom contributor has provided.

This. I tried making Vince into an off tank with charged blades, but with even more gear than Kyera and the same constitution his inability to hold a shield seems to make this impossible. Feel like I wasted points on Vince's chatged blades...

[fallen]

Officer Genious - he's a mystic, so I wouldn't expect tank. Charged Blades is built for diving in, striking and diving out. Did you find that possibility useful?

[Officer Genious]

Yeah just annoyed since I sold a good mace to finance the armor...Oh well. Kinda regret putting points in charged blades then, since I typically need 2 or 3 people to bottleneck willing to take a hit or two, but with Vince's investment in swords I'd feel it a waste to give him a sweet staff I got as a merchant quest reward. >~< But I'll work it out or just roll a new group- I want to buy Selene away.

[vdx]

The Cleric was the character that took me a bit to figure out how to best utilize in the overall party. She didn't seem to work well as a dedicated true healer in EP 1 (she just stood around all the time with nothing to do), and making her a dedicated melee fighter (all points to strength, hammers, Smiting Blow) made her lag in healing abilities and she still couldn't keep up in total damage from other heroes. But, after some experimenting, I found a nice healer-fighter hybrid that worked well in EP 1 and is doing extremely well in EP 2, thanks in part to better equipment and tougher monsters that require more than a Vras-will-take-care-of-it tactic. Of course, playing style and tactics play a big role in what builds will work for individual players.

The Cleric build I'm finding most useful is the build I like to call "flank guard". Her improvement points go to helping her stay alive in melee while doing some damage but her big go-to abilities are healing (which I upgrade as needed) and Ethereal Anguish. That combination lets her protect the range fighters (which are my primary damage dealers), lets her step toe-to-toe with enemies and knocks the teeth out of incoming attacks. Because I don't have Cleric Buffs to cast, I can use the SP to use Etheral Anguish (50 sp per cast at this point). Also her equipment bonus are high enough that I don't have to use Smiting Blow to connect (it still helps a lot). The absence of buffs is missed but it's a trade off I take into account in combat tactics. Besides, with Ethereal Anguish, you don't need a lot of buffs :-)

I'd recommend every hero having a limited number of go-to abilities and every party have two go-to combat tactics. Pick abilities and tactics that compliment each other and, when possible, uses the same base attribute or skill. For the Cleric, she's in order: healing, casting Ethereal Anguish, attacking with a hammer. In my SP intense mode, I'm free with casting Ethereal Anguish and using Smiting Blow. In SP conserve mode, I'm more selecting and use her basic attack.

For reference, below are my Cleric's current stats. Note the total +17 parry combined with the 16 (max) hammer skill gives her nice dice pool to block melee attacks which when combined with the upgraded constitution (8 con = 6 toughness) and total +152 hp from equipment makes her a mini-tank in her own right (total hp is 573 hit points). Her total +24 in damage adds a nice sting to her basic attack too.

After casting Ethereal Anguish 6 (-2 AP, -3 Accuracy, -5 Dodge; cross area of effect) there's not too many monsters in the cultist temple that can stand toe-to-toe with her.

Heck, defensively, she can stand (and has stood) against 4 3-AP heavy hitters that could do more than 200 damage per attack. It's not a preferred situation, but in the brutal cult temple, it happens. Highlights of the fight: Ethereal Anguish reduced 3 of the monster's AP to 1 and of the remaining 6 attacks, 3 were blocked and the three that hit dropped her to less than a third of her life (living is living). Next round, the tide turned as the party could bring it's fire power to bear as the other party members weren't "distracted" by their own cult problem. Yes, the Cleric isn't as good as a tank as Vras and can't do as much damage as Lv 10 Firebolt or Lv 10 Aimed Shot, but she get's her licks in. More than one cult cluster has learned the mistake of attacking my party's flank.

Kyerea the Cleric (flank-guard build)

Attributes:
3 Dexterity
8 Constitution
11 Strength
4 Willpower
7 Intelligence
6 Knowledge

8 Dodge
8 Resistance
6 Toughness

16 Hammers
2 Polearms
3 Invocation
5 Conjuring
5 Lore

Talents:
Smiting Blow 4
Myshana's Tears 7
Ethereal Anguish 6
Purifying Breeze 1

Equipment:
Infantry Hammer (47-67 damage, 4 accuracy, 3 parry)
Steel Rimmed Shield (7 parry, +62 HP, +2 armor)
Leather Breastplate (40 armor)
Bands of Steel (+8 fire damage, +4 parry, +1 dodge, +4 fire resist)
Mantle of the Guard (+10 HP, +3 parry, +3 dodge)
Vurnak's Charm (+80 hp, +6 fire damage, +4 holy damge, +6 lighting damage)

[vdx]

For clarity, my current parties use the standard four characters. My combat tactics require 2 melee heroes. Vras up-front as a tank and a flank-guard that can be moved to the front if needed or swung around to block a side attack. If I had an optional character, like the blade dancer, that could be built as a melee fighter, I might explore using the Cleric as an offensive magic caster.

My efforts to use the Cleric as an offensive magic caster weren't very effective. Her attack was too inconsistent and left the party short one melee player.