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Post by grävling on Mar 23, 2014 8:37:21 GMT -5
I'd change that to 'requires a minimum 3AP to act', because, of course you may require more depending on your weapon.
But it is a pretty odd way of phrasing things.
'Actions require at least 3AP' seems more natural to me. or 'Actions need 3AP or more.'
But the sense seems backwards. We don't really want to know what we _require_, we want to know what happens if we don't have it.
"Combatants with fewer than 3AP must wait until the next round to act" -- seems to say it better, but will not fit on small phones. >3AP = unable to act in this round ??
Maybe somebody else can come up with a good short way to say this?
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2014 8:53:25 GMT -5
I added that line of text before using your idea for the watermark. Perhaps the watermark just makes it clear enough now?
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Post by grävling on Mar 23, 2014 9:01:45 GMT -5
I added that line of text before using your idea for the watermark. Perhaps the watermark just makes it clear enough now? Ask somebody else. I am in love with my watermark -- thank you for using it -- and thus way too biased to even contemplate having an objective opinion on this. Maybe we need a poll?
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Bohrson
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Currently playing : Star Traders 4X
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Post by Bohrson on Mar 23, 2014 18:53:32 GMT -5
fallen I like the watermark. Very much. And I personally think it makes things clear enough. grävling I think a poll is a good idea, indeed, though it may prove itself unnecessary in the end. At least the community would have expressed itself.
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Post by Brutus Aurelius on Mar 23, 2014 19:47:14 GMT -5
The only thing that bugs me about the new 3 AP to act is the fact that I have to wait until next turn to reload/heal/stim and that makes it that much easier for enemies to kill me or Runners.
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2014 20:31:56 GMT -5
The only thing that bugs me about the new 3 AP to act is the fact that I have to wait until next turn to reload/heal/stim and that makes it that much easier for enemies to kill me or Runners. It is not new. Only the text that says "3 AP required to act" is new. The 3 AP rule has been in Cyber Knights since its first day on the market, more than 3 years ago. It has led to endless claims that "the game is skipping my turn" which is not true if you understand how the turn works.
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2014 22:42:25 GMT -5
For this kind of thing, I think a poll is overkill.
I have updated the text to read "Initiative (3+ AP required to act)"
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Post by grävling on Mar 24, 2014 1:24:01 GMT -5
Phase ends when <3AP ?
Because I still think that the sense is backwards. Logically the one implies the other, but the confusing thing is that you can have AP which you cannot use (1 or 2 of them)
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Post by Alex Fury on Mar 24, 2014 9:09:58 GMT -5
I'll admit 'needing' 3 AP to do ANYTHING in a turn seems a bit annoying, especially when some things only take 1-2 AP. Makes you really pre-plan some moves for combat, which isn't a bad thing.. But if you have AP left that you COULD do something.. seems odd that it won't let you. (such as heal, maybe reposition 1 or 2 squares, etc)
As for the watermark, love it.
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Post by fallen on Mar 24, 2014 10:22:21 GMT -5
Alex Fury - maybe it would help if we just removed the text? The rule has always been there and is a major control feature within Cyber Knights combat (plan your moves!) but the text is new.
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Post by Alex Fury on Mar 24, 2014 11:21:01 GMT -5
fallen - Oh, I know it's been there.. I think the watermark and text are just fine.
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mataeus
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Posts: 820
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Post by mataeus on Apr 7, 2014 12:36:04 GMT -5
I'll admit 'needing' 3 AP to do ANYTHING in a turn seems a bit annoying, especially when some things only take 1-2 AP. Makes you really pre-plan some moves for combat, which isn't a bad thing.. But if you have AP left that you COULD do something.. seems odd that it won't let you. (such as heal, maybe reposition 1 or 2 squares, etc) As for the watermark, love it. I've waxed lyrical about my love for CK, it's my favourite TB game by far. But the above has been a bone of contention for me since day one. WHY must we wait and not be able to use our small amounts of AP? I've said this elsewhere, but the combat and it's phases are massively over-complex. At the risk of repeating myself: Combat in my mind should work just like it does in Fallout 2. You have a certain number of AP as determined by your relevant stats, which you can then spend as you see fit. So, if you have 7AP: Move two squares (2AP), hit a guy in the face (2AP), then retreat back around the corner (3AP). Or, if he's low on HP, hit him twice for 4AP to risk trying to finish him off. All the phases, rounds, turns and everything may have math behind them and be very smart and clever, but I don't care - I just want the combat to be intuitive and make sense. When, as fallen states, you have people accusing the game of 'skipping your turn', it implies the combat mechanics are not easily understood. The combat mechanics in TA aren't perfect, but at least they make sense from the word go, and work in a not dissimilar fashion to the ones I've outlined above. TA even has the Fallout-style option of saving some AP for ambush/defence for when an enemy enters your range. The combat in TA feels far superior to the combat in CK. I know it's too late now, the game has been out for years and it's combat is embedded deep within and changing it would mean rebuilding and rebalancing the entire game, which is ridiculous. Just think about it for the sequel. (Hey, I can dream! Kickstart it )
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Post by fallen on Apr 7, 2014 13:07:27 GMT -5
mataeus - thanks for the feedback! The 3 AP rule definitely has a very big effect on combat, balance, how/when to you use turns, attack, retreat, and how to move the fastest across the map.
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mataeus
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From summer sands, to armageddons reach.
Posts: 820
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Post by mataeus on Apr 8, 2014 2:05:30 GMT -5
mataeus - thanks for the feedback! The 3 AP rule definitely has a very big effect on combat, balance, how/when to you use turns, attack, retreat, and how to move the fastest across the map. It certainly does. When playing last night, I retreated my Knight and my Runner around opposite corners at the end of an alleyway to heal, and stay out of firing range of the last Assassin coming our way. I only used 3AP on each of them. (Out of 7). The second phase starts, I still have the initiative because of my saved AP, so my Knight downs the medipack using 1AP and then waits. I want the Assassin to come around the corner to me, as I'm fighting melee. Phase 3... Move -> finish (0 AP). Phase 4... Phase 5... Because I have initiative and I'm waiting for the ambush, it just goes on! Eventually I get fed up and use my full AP allowance to move in beside him. A new round starts and I have initiative again, so I just clobber him and he goes down. I just think the whole experience would have been better if I'd ended my turn and saved my AP like in TA, then he'd have come around the corner straight into my saved-AP waiting knuckles! Thinking about it, the new generation Xcom works like that too. It may not be the most original mechanic, but it's certainly fun and tactical.
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Post by fallen on Apr 8, 2014 7:56:01 GMT -5
mataeus - the only issue is that it sounds like the enemy had no AP left in the turn. So, he can't move to come around the corner to walk into your trap. I do agree that a button needs to be added that will let you spend 1 AP and "delay". That is on the roadmap.
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