Group build feedback and advice thread

[Rashar]

Back with a somewhat of a question/thesis.

I have Vraes in my party and decided that he would be sword and shield style fighter, now that I am further in the game and have a pretty good understanding of most of the mechanics I came across on what for me feels like an eye opener but I am wondering what the catch is of this.

Now the thing that I mean is Vraes as dexterity based tank or as strenght based tank, I understand that as dexterity based tank you have to stick with a light blade and you lose the chance to be versatile and lose out on 3ap 1 handers or even 2 handed weapons for fights were you want higher average dmg vs armored opponents. But other then some versatility options the gain for going dex based tank seems to be massive.

If we assume we increase our main stat to 16 and have blades at 16 aswell this is how they would look:

Str based: str16, dex4(aka3dodge), knowledge3
Dex based: str7, dex16(aka12dodge), knowledge3

Now lets see what does (and what the difference is) for our main defence stats

str based:

melee defence: 16(blades skill)+3(dodge bonus)
ranged defence: 3(dodge bonus)+4(dexterity)
spell defence: 3(dodge bonus)+3(knowledge)

dex based

melee defence: 16(blades skill)+12(dodge bonus)
DIFFERENCE = 9 dice
ranged defence: 12(dodge bonus)+16(dexterity)
DIFFERENCE = 21 dice
spell defence: 12(dodge bonus)+3(knowledge) DIFFERENCE = 9 dice

After doing some math and thinking, it kinda blew me of my feet how good dexterity actually is, seeing as not only you get dodge dice on anything you are defending against but versus ranged physical attacks you are double dipping from dexterity. Needless to say this makes dexterity characters far better suited for a tank or offtank role. Now I assume many of you already knew this and I seen En1gma talking about untouchble Vraes a few times, so I decided to do some math. Now I kinda expect there to be a catch somewhere. Strenght does something to your minimum damage but I can't see it being better then gaining 9-21 dice on defence rolls, especially the extra dice against ranged attacks which are the only times when a shield based Vraes seems to be able to receive spike damage and even then there is rank1-10 phalanx shield.

I understand that with a dex based build the initial damage will most likely be low, but in my party I expect to counter that with rank 10 berserker rage for vraes and he is using crushing blow 4 atm, although I might dump those into making sure I have 10 phalanx shield and 10 berserker rage after I respec him. And there is Kjartan in my party to further enhance Vraes his damage with Burning blades 10 so I expect Vraes to have +d48dmg and +d36fire dmg and a total of 33%+6% = 39% crit chance. In combination with choking ash 10 that should still make Vraes pretty scary. (Atleast this is my theory)

Currently my Vraes is str build and he has focused and on strenght and con, I regret giving him points in con, the only times he takes damage from ranged attacks or named enemies. Even for a str based build I should have seen that dex was the way to go :/. Thing is that with a str based build dumping all points in dex after achieving str 16 seems the "best" way. Incase of the dex based build after covering dex 16 you can go for knowledge to gain extra dice for defending against spells aswell, another added benefit of dex tanking.

Now am I just overlooking something entirely or is a dex based Vraes tank just much and much better then a str based Vraes tank?

Keep in mind that this is purely the dex tank VS str tank and in no way way shape or form am I trying to compare any of this with a 2handed Vraes build.

Once again, looking for some confirmation or someone to show me some loopholes in my theory.

Thanks in advance,

Rashar.

[samopop]

Rashar - I think your basic assessment is correct. I'll add a few details.

The biggest downsides to going the dex route with Vraes are (in my opinion)
a) No 3AP 1-H weapons. Vraes is often your heaviest hitter and for areas full of high armor enemies (say, the orcin caverns) it might be quite the slog without this.
b) Even with 2AP weapons, with the recent strength change, your average damage will be noticeably lower. Prior to the strength change the damage might have been roughly the same.
c) You start with 3 lower dexterity than strength. While you can eventually make it up, attributes are accrued at the slowest rate, so it would take roughly 6 more character levels to max out dexterity. That would be 3 fewer attribute points to put elsewhere and the 7 strength you start with would be wasted.

Some other considerations
a) You get access to 1 AP weapons which can really increase your damage output against low armor enemies
b) I think the main benefit is the additional parry dice. Yeah, you get a lot of extra dodge dice, but your tank Vraes is most likely going to be using heavy armor with large -evasion penalties. I think you would still get hit by most ranged attacks (on nightmare). Alternatively, you *could* dodge many ranged attacks with the right group build, but I think it would take a concentrated build of max burst of speed (with the +dodge) and some maxed high -accuracy spells in concert (frigid air would be the best, but meteoric shockwave or EA might work).

[matrim]

There are other things to note as well. Even on nightmare you can go overboard with stats. If you have been building PS on Vraes the dodge gained by pumping dex on melee defense is of little to no value, you will be parrying 99% of attacks anyway. Yes it is appreciably better for ranged attacks but those tend to be lower in damage and countered with Vraes' great armor (even with BR he can get obscene amounts). So yes, your dex Vraes will dodge that arrow but if it connected it would have done maybe 40 damage...big whoop. Dex Vraes is noticeably better for maybe a handful of fights in the game (Host initiates, C8, some of the Iron Circle). What you lose is the base strength damage which is big when you consider juggernaut synergy. I am also a big fan of weapon swapping for high armor targets, which is nice. This is not to dissuade you (I have a dex Vraes) but to merely point out that there are advantages to both builds that are not immediately apparent.

[fallen]

Mar 8, 2016 12:25:28 GMT -5 samopop said:

Alternatively, you *could* dodge many ranged attacks with the right group build, but I think it would take a concentrated build of max burst of speed (with the +dodge) and some maxed high -accuracy spells in concert (frigid air would be the best, but meteoric shockwave or EA might work).

I think this is one of the best discussion points.

matrim - great post. He is naturally inclined to handle these things in other ways (high toughness, high health, high armor, phalanx shield) which still allow him to play to his biggest and best strengths (i.e. strength ... damage ... JUGGERNAUT!)

Rashar - very good run on the numbers. It is great to see the comparisons laid out like that. +1

[CdrPlatypus]

DEX Vraes has always been an odd ball in my opinion, way back before Phalanx Shield had ranged autoblock there was a good argument for it especially if you were going to have him dual wield. It's still possible, which is one of the great things about this game, but it is a sub-optimal build under the current game rules.

[fallen]

Mar 8, 2016 13:06:53 GMT -5 CdrPlatypus said:

DEX Vraes has always been an odd ball in my opinion, way back before Phalanx Shield had ranged autoblock there was a good argument for it especially if you were going to have him dual wield. It's still possible, which is one of the great things about this game, but it is a sub-optimal build under the current game rules.

I'd agree that in a big way, Phalanx Shield and the new Strength rules have pushed the Dex Vraes into a tighter corner.

[tran]

fallen, I have to disagree
I had just made a new group with dex Vraes, torrent of DOOM Tam, raging hammer Ky, flaming Kj and the result is...
DEVASTATING!!! SIMPLY DEVASTATING!!! Why? Here's why:
with 16 dex, 16 con and the best gears that provide bonus to dodge, the enemies were ALMOST NEVER ABLE TOUCHED Vreas! Heck, when I fought the 7 C, I was able to send Vreas to face ALL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME AND HE WASN'T HIT ONCE !!! Ky and Tam's ac curse made the once impossible fight looked like a joke (I was on nightmare, mind you) and all ranged foes were slain the next turn, that should show you how deadly torrent of steel is.
After con and dex were maxed out, I went for str, why? For the 1 hand swords, that's why! With the 2ap sword relic and a 1ap dagger that provides more crit, I now see the delicious number 500 quite often (lv 10 crushing blow) WITHOUT CHOKING ASH!!! The best part-Ky didn't have to play the medic, which means she can swing her hammer and clean up the leftovers!
I will post Vraes 's gears and stats later, I have to admit, I have been lucky with treasure chests

[Kanly]

I've been playing around with a boost in dex vraes using ferocity and BR. Ferocity x7 = lol. With around 14% sp drain, I rarely even need kyera to sacrifice.

[fallen]

Mar 8, 2016 20:54:45 GMT -5 tran said:

fallen, I have disagree
I have just made a new group with dex Vreas, torrent of DOOM Tam, raging hammer Ky, flaming Kj and the result is...
DEVASTATING!!! SIMPLY DEVASTATING!!! Why? Here's why:
with 16 dex, 16 con and the best gears that provide bonus to dodge, the enemies were ALMOST NEVER ABLE TOUCHED Vreas! Heck, when I fought the 7 C, I was able to send Vreas to face ALL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME AND HE WASN'T HIT ONCE !!! Ky and Tam's ac curse made the once impossible fight looked like a joke (I was on nightmare, mind you) and all ranged foes were slain the next turn, that should show you how deadly torrent of steel is.
After con and dex were maxed out, I went for str, why? For the 1 hand swords, that's why! With the 2ap sword relic and a 1ap dagger that provides more crit, I now see the delicious number 500 quite often (lv 10 crushing blow) WITHOUT CHOKING ASH!!! The best part-Ky didn't have to play the medic, which means she can swing her hammer and clean up the leftovers!
I will post Vreas 's gears and stats later, I have to admit, I have been lucky with treasure chests

Sounds like a great build. I am not saying it isn't doable or a viable choice, just that many of the changes have tipped the scales in the other favor.

Are you on the Nightmare Ironman Ladders?

[tran]

fallen nah, I am just having fun and trying to find the "ONE BUILD TO RULE THEM ALL"!!!
I love these gears: workupload.com/file/q35lKJyv

[matrim]

That cloak is HOT!

[tran]

No no no, I'm pretty sure that it is sexy

[fallen]

Wow, you have accumulated an amazing set of dodge gear. Wow! +1, nice post!

[tran]

What can i say, Lady Chance favors this team a lot!

[Rashar]

Sorry for my late reply in this thread, I will continue to delve a bit further into the pro's and cons of dex based vs str based Vraes as I am close to having 60 moonstones and thinking about a few respecs but more on that later.

samopop



The fact that it would take 6 levels longer to reach dexterity 16 might indeed be one of the more major downsides/cons, that is a very valid point, I think Vraes reaches strength 16 @ level 17 or 18 normally so it would bring you to level 23 or 24 if you go the dexterity route before having a maxed out dexterity. At the end of act I you will have reached level 18 and level 23/24 seems to be reached after having been through roughly 60%-ish of the act 2 storyline.



Losing versatility sure is a downside, but it feels acceptable it is harder for me to judge as I have no idea what is coming in Act 3 and 4, however I felt that if I had taking the dex route in act 2 with vraes I would have been better off. In my case though... Vraes was still using his 2ap (str) captains lukai blade during underforge, the lodge and the ice caves... so Vraes did like 30-50 per attack for me. Now he has a regular 2ap str 1 hander from one of the stores and his damage now is around 100-ish. At the moment I feel that his damage is pretty good actually and he does not even have any ranks in berserkers rage and Kjartan his BB is only @ 3.



The "new" strength rule and how it helps with minimum damage does not feel that powerful, nor do I not understand how people can see this is one of the pros of wielding a str 1 hander, you people do realize that with 16 str it means your minimum damage will be atleast 16... Now do not get me wrong I do not intend to bash you or bash the strength score, but for me dealing atleast 16 damage is not something I would take into account... eventually there will be trolls, berserkers and named enemies that will have 20-30 armor left even after applying choking ash 10 and other various possible debuffs. And most "trash" enemies will have 0-ish armor after having applied a choking ash 10. So the difference between doing atleast 16 damage and the chance of rolling 1-16 seems to be neglectible. Added to that atleast +d48 modifier due to berserker rage meaning he will have atleast 33% crit chance aswell means that his damage will already be all over the scale so 16 minimum damage is such a small feature. Not even counting you probably will aim for burning blades 10 with Kjartan adding +fire damage to the mix and another 6% critical hit. This will mean that regardless of str or dex based he will have strong critical strike hits and his damage will still be rather good/strong.

Now I know that there will be people that will say well but the downside of Berserker rage is losing out on 6 parry and -34 armor. Well if you go the dodge route you are actually gaining 9 dodge dice... so you are actually ofsetting the disadvantages of your skills without needing another talent for it from your group composition. The -34 armor is actually more devastating as once attacks do hit you you will be taking 26 more damage on average per attack that hits you, but that will be countered by having a rank 10 phalanx shield evening out the armor a bit seeing as you will have -34 plus 22 for a total amount of -12 armor meaning you will only take 10 more damage per attack that hits you.

I think the main benefit is the additional parry dice. Yeah, you get a lot of extra dodge dice, but your tank Vraes is most likely going to be using heavy armor with large -evasion penalties. I think you would still get hit by most ranged attacks (on nightmare). Alternatively, you *could* dodge many ranged attacks with the right group build, but I think it would take a concentrated build of max burst of speed (with the +dodge) and some maxed high -accuracy spells in concert (frigid air would be the best, but meteoric shockwave or EA might work).

I don't really understand what your conlcusion is here and I mean no offence at all thing is that when I look at the numbers and what seems to be the general opinion I feel that it is weird that they do not match. Opinion seems to favor str based Vraes however my numbers indicate that a dex based Vraes should be (MUCH) better.

You are saying that the main benefit is getting the +9 dodge to better parry attacks, personally for me that is icing on the cake, Vraes as a tank (regardless of his main attribute) should already be parrying atleast 95% of all melee attacks so the extra dice just mean he will parry even more or he will also parry attacks there where the gap between you and the enemies is in favor of your enemies.

You then say that regardless of the amount of dice gained to dodge ranged attacks/spells Vraes would still get hit by most ranged attacks (on NM) due to using Heavy armor and the -evasion penalties. (-evasion means that for every -1 evasion you lose 1 ranged defence die) This is where you lost me a bit because the total dice difference between a str based Vraes and dex Vraes in regards of dodging physical ranged attacks is 21! Those are standard die and it means that it will add +7 successes on average. That is 7 successes str based Vraes will never have and I understand that even with the heavy armor you will lose some dice but that means that a str based Vraes would stand no chance at ranged attacks and would need to solely rely on getting that 52% from Phalanx Shield.

In my current playthrough my Vraes gets demolished by ranged attacks he only defends with 18 dice versus physical ranged and has 126 armor and he even has phalanx shield 8 (will be 10 asap) and still lvl 28 krete archers manage to deal upto 126 damage to him. And this is with Vraes using full defense items aswell. This is one of the reasons that I was like if so many ranged attacks still come through there must be a better way. And while I do understand it is all about synergies between characters I do feel that a character needs to have a certain self sustainability.

My conclusion is that if you use Vraes purely as 1 hander + shield dex tank with phalanx shield 10 and and eventually berserk rage 10 he will not only be better at evading ranged attacks. He will be able to counter the disadvantage from having berserk rage with the dice gained from having dex 16(and at later levels even 18-20) making him more self reliant. This leads to other group members not having to choose a certain talent to further enhance this (for example Kyera's warden shield) or choosing more offensive gear choises that give more %crit instead of feeling the need to have +dodge and parry items. The added d48 damage from berserk rage combined with the 33% crit means that he will still be able to make "big" damage attacks. I feel that the buff on strength is not strong enough damage wise and does not remotely come close to tipping the scale in favor of a str based tank. There is ofcourse the issue on being versatile, str tank can still switch to 3 ap 1 handed weapons or even to 2 handers (although latter is sub optimal due to not being able to use phalanx shield 10 optimally.) Furthermore while the use of a 3 ap 1 hander means that you will more easily overcome the opponents armor it also means that you need to make sure that you can spend 6ap/7ap on attacking otherwise using a 2 ap weapon is better. (not to mention that at later levels with Juggernaut shenninigans 2 ap weapons are in generally better aswell.) The best reasons for not going dex tank is as samopop pointed out, it takes much longer to get to dex 16 and your 7 points in str will be completely wasted as opposed to go the str way where you take full advantage of str and your dex (while only 4) will still give you dodge and dex and actually does something. And the other good point was from matrim who has a valid point that there is such a thing as to much. Although I feel that this can be countered by using a bit more offensive gear

The best companion for this Vraes would imho be Kjartan who bring Choking Ash and Burning Blades and makes using a 1ap lightblade an option in a decent amount of cases, every time an opponent has 0 armor it is usually better to use the weapon that has a lower ap value as you do not need to concern yourself with penetrating the opponents armor and especially with high % crit values. This means every attack has a chance to deal x2, x2,5 or x3 damage especially with d48 from berserk rage and the d36 from burning blades and depending on your build you can go for crushing blow and conserve SP or if your gear allows it you can go ferocity and %sp drain.

As usual my posts tend to go overboard on length...

Let me end it by saying/stating the following: I am a min/max type of gamer who is looking for cookie cutter builds and speaks in terms with words like best in slot or "best" and when looking at builds I tend to try and make the character be self sustaining to a certain point and then looking at how other characters can further stenghten it. If I have offended you in any way shape or form then know that is not my intention, there are a lot of different gamer types out there. Even though it might not have shown through in my post the number 1 thing is that you have fun, regardless of any math behind all of the builds/theorycrafting. And it is not my goal to tell you what to do. I just like these type of discussions as it makes people better players/more knowledgeable. So if you see me making any mistakes feel free to point them out.

Thanks for reading!

With kind regards,

Rashar.