tran
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Posts: 182 
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Post by tran on Mar 9, 2016 20:06:11 GMT -5
Rashar
Great analyze, I actually tried the dex shield 2ap dagger build you talked about, its defense is excellent and once you max out dex, you could invest in str to use sword for bigger damage (unfortunately I didn't get to try it out because my old game file was lost) and yeah, Berserk rage's downside is completely offset by the extra parry PS provides, and Vreas will be nearly invulnerable if you give him all the dodge gear! I can imagine it: a nearly 50℅ crit Vraes with the sword C gave him, rushing in battle and maul down all who dare to oppose him! A true juggernault!
By the way, he DOES need the bonus that warden shield provides, every bit helps, trust me, I know!
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Post by Rashar on Mar 9, 2016 21:42:00 GMT -5
yeah after dexterity has reached 16 there are many ways to spend the other attribute points aswell. (Under the latest update it is probably wise to save up 2 attribute/skill points to cap out on your main scores when you ding 30.)
After dexterity has reached 16, you can go constitution for extra hp/armor although when aiming for avoidance tanking I feel that investing in con is not the best thing. In cases where you know that you need to soak damage, it easier to swap out a piece of gear for something with a bucketload of hp on it. For me the choise boils down to constitution or knowledge and atm I am inclined to say knowledge because it gives you extra dice in avoiding spell attacks. Although I have not run into anything yet that used a curse that made me go scared, even with some strong curses it only takes 1 ap and an item to get rid of the curse otherwise I would deffo consider willpower as a valid option however for the time being willpower is an attribute that has the "never sink points into it" tag.
Since this is my 1st playthrough I have no idea about what awesome predertimined weapons are in the game and if there'd happen to be some crazy str one that might be another incentive to stay on the str side. But in some cases you seem to get awarded a weapon that resembles the weapon you're carrying in your mainhand. Currently finished chapter 2 with a str Vraes and even with phalanx shield 8 I hate everything that is ranged... especially if they have range 7-10... and are standing under the fog of war. My current Vraes has stoneskin 5 and I dearly regret taking that ability after my free respec... I should have went for an equal distribution between phalanx shield and berserk rage and make sure that I have burst of speed 3 for the +2 MP. Melee attacks miss him 95% of the time, Vlotgar hit once, Varnak hit him a few times but that battle took me ages, Groth never touched him. I can send him safely into a bunch melee even if they have 3/4 ap. It is literally the frigging archers that cause me a butload of hurt.
Now that I have reached act 3, I decided to take a look at their levels and if the AI changes and based on that I will decide if I take a respec or not. If I do my Vraes (lvl 28) will look something like this:
dex 16, other points not 100% sure but tipped in favor of knowledge. (save up 2 for when I hit 30)
blades 16, then switch between leadership and lore for extra rounds of buffs. (save up 2 for when I hit 30)
Currently @ lvl 28 he has 20 talent points available and will aim for:
Burst of speed 3
Berserk rage 10
phalanx shield 6
ferocity 1
After that I will cap out phalanx shield and after that have not given it much thought. Can go save up for High rank of juggernaut or grab NM.
He will end up with base weapon damage+d48(berserk rage_10)+d32(ferocity_1)+d36 fire(Burning blades_10) and having atleast 39% crit chance and this is without any equipment bonusus.
With kind regards,
Rashar.
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tran
Hero
Posts: 182
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Post by tran on Mar 9, 2016 22:05:21 GMT -5
Yeah archers can be a pain to deal with, you will know what I mean when you face the Volpa hunters and shamans, oh boy, those guys pack a painful punch to those that got hitted...
I have just finnished the update with my current group, after this, I will try out ANOTHER team, leaded by the shield bearing, dagger using Vraes, there are times when a warrior has to put down his sword to shield others!
By the way, Kyera the spell caster and Kyera the hammer, which one do you prefer?
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Post by Rashar on Mar 9, 2016 23:18:01 GMT -5
That is a hard question man...
Firstly and mostly it depends on the group composition, I am inclined to say that every group needs to have a character that can off tank. In my group I have the original 4 heroes and Vraes is my tank, kyera is my holy mage and if the shit hits the fan I have Tamilin who will tank or die trying.
I personally would ALLWAYS (and that is not a word I use lightly) make Selen or Tamilin offtank because their mainstat is dexterity and dexterity characters make naturally good tanks due to dexterity being the most overpowered ability score in this game. Tamilin is the only character in the game that has dex:dodge to a 1:1 ratio if I am correct and Selen has 4:3 or 75% depending on how you want to see it.
Now my knowledge of the game only goes upto the end of act 2, so I have no idea if later in the game the use of holy damage becomes better or worse although with act 3 having a city of the dead... I have a feeling that it is not a bad thing to have holy damage to kyera's arsenal.
I feel there are only 2 ways to build kyera and I am sure (many) people will disagree and at 1st I was like she is very hard to build but the thing is, you just need to decide what you will use her for and then stick to it, atleast that is what I feel. And for a great deal she probably uses a lot of the same talents as either an offtank or caster. The big difference is in if she is at the front aswell or at the back.
I think it will all come down if you want selen/tamilin as offtank, if the answer is yes then I guess I would stick to kyera being a caster because you will then have banishment that will actually hit the enemies instead of fizzle.
The downside of going off tank with kyera is that you do want her to be able to actually hit stuff and deal damage every now and then because passing the turn with 4-7ap left is depressing and just firing of 7 sacrifices is just as depressing. So if you do go tank, that will most likely mean that you have to go hybrid a bit with Intelligence and Strenght.
You probably want to make sure that eventually you will be able to EA a 3x3 square for that you need atleast conjuring 9. However early game you just need to make sure that conjuring is able to hit 5 people once you reach EA4. So if you do your math well you have points to spare to throw in hammers or invocation.
Kyera's gear if worked towards dodge+parry can make a nice offtank aswell, together with Vraes and selen/Tamilin you might be able to divide the damage between the 3 of them and just wreak havoc in melee while being supported by your wizard or supported by a melee vincent aswell.
You can also go for kyera tank and with OT Selen/Tamilin and then go damage vraes 2 hander style...
Options seem to be plenty however I personally think that if I had build my Kyera more towards hammers it would have been better in act 1 and 2, there were few times where I fired off my level 4 banishment and was like ow yeah.... that was so insane... There were however many moments where I was like... **** I want more people to be able to stand in melee range and not give a **** about being hit.
So my conclusion would be that for act 1 and 2 and having Vraes as a maintank, having an offtank kyera would most likely be the most beneficial. Especially because when kyera is offtanking she will spend her AP on attacking if there is nothing to do so she won't be idle as much. And when you make her as hammer build her warden shield is more useful because in caster mode if something attacks her it will her anyway regardless of her warden shield, however as hammer she will have a lot of parry from shield/hammer and hammer skill making it atleast so that she should be able to reliable parry attacks, dodging is not in the question though and for sure she will die when targeted by multiple ranged attackers. And for that reason Selen/Tamilin make better offtanks as dexterity... that crazy dexterity making sure they have a crapton of dice versus physical ranged. If you do go for a tamilin I would strongly suggest to go for a hybrid tamilin meaning distribute points in bows/throwing evenly and either avoid stealth altogether or just grab what you can on armor+blacknight and yolo!
Hope it helped a bit... my mind is all over the place when it comes down to actually deciding what to pick for kyera. Although I can honestly say in my playthrough with a VKKT party I would have rather had kyera as a hammerdin and not as holy mage.
With kind regards,
Rashar.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 9, 2016 23:18:02 GMT -5
I like Kyera the caster.
Current group (level 19 just starting Episode 2) she has Ethereal Anguish 6, Banishment 4, Purifying Breeze 4.
Thinking I'll start investing in Warder's Shield now, but seriously considering putting a couple points in Smiting Blow for those times when she has to help hold a flank/gets caught in close with enemies.
Currently have her using Rimwood Staff 2AP, 2Acc, 4Parry, 13-22Dmg, +40Max SP, +2Dodge. But I have Chaplain's Heavy Mace 2AP, 4Acc, 3Parry, 29-42Dmg, +20Max SP, +12Holy Dmg in inventory and could give her a Banded Shield 4Parry, auto-blocks 4% of ranged attacks, +4Armor. With her other gear she's got +32Dmg bonus +24Fire Dmg (BB5+gear) with 9%Crit.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 9, 2016 23:47:52 GMT -5
Kyera is definitely great at both pure support and casting, but if you want a melee focused healer/off-tank then Fyona is a more able hammer and off-tank.
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Post by samopop on Mar 10, 2016 2:00:50 GMT -5
Rashar - You make a lot of good points and I don't take personal offense to anything you say. This game is quite complicated and pretty immune to min/maxing in the sense that almost every decision has difficult tradeoffs and there is almost never a clear-cut "correct" or "max" choice. This is also why can have 50+ pages of discussion in this thread and why we love this game! One point about the rules: attribute maxes are still at 16. Skills can now go to 18 at level 30 and 20 at level 40, but attributes are still capped at 16. Regarding whether the strength rule change is significant or not for damage: after looking at the math I agree with you that it is not that significant. My math says that the increase in mean damage comes out to s(s-1)/d where s is your strength and d is the amount of variable damage (assuming the variable damage is greater than your strength). Practically speaking, that means the average damage increase is likely in the 1-4 range. For example, Vraes starts out with a strength of 7 and a variable damage of d11 (w/ savage sweep and the training sword) meaning his strength gives him an extra 3.8 damage on average. But, if you used crushing blow instead the additional mean damage would be only 2.2. Late game the numbers would vary a lot based upon the build, but with strength 16 and d100 for example, it would be 2.4 mean damage increase. I don't really understand what your conlcusion is here and I mean no offence at all thing is that when I look at the numbers and what seems to be the general opinion I feel that it is weird that they do not match. Opinion seems to favor str based Vraes however my numbers indicate that a dex based Vraes should be (MUCH) better. You are saying that the main benefit is getting the +9 dodge to better parry attacks, personally for me that is icing on the cake, Vraes as a tank (regardless of his main attribute) should already be parrying atleast 95% of all melee attacks so the extra dice just mean he will parry even more or he will also parry attacks there where the gap between you and the enemies is in favor of your enemies. You then say that regardless of the amount of dice gained to dodge ranged attacks/spells Vraes would still get hit by most ranged attacks (on NM) due to using Heavy armor and the -evasion penalties. (-evasion means that for every -1 evasion you lose 1 ranged defence die) This is where you lost me a bit because the total dice difference between a str based Vraes and dex Vraes in regards of dodging physical ranged attacks is 21! Those are standard die and it means that it will add +7 successes on average. That is 7 successes str based Vraes will never have and I understand that even with the heavy armor you will lose some dice but that means that a str based Vraes would stand no chance at ranged attacks and would need to solely rely on getting that 52% from Phalanx Shield. Certainly it is *possible* to build a dodge tank Vraes that basically never gets hit by ranged targets. tran has shown us an amazing example of this just a few posts ago! However, it really took a concentrated team build. I believe tran said that it took warder's shield (kyera) to increase parry/dodge along with EA (kyera) and silent stalker (tamlin) to decrease ranged mob's accuracy. Plus, no heavy armor was used (due to the -evasion) and instead light armor w/ extra dodge/parry was used. Plus, all three item slots were dedicated to dodge/parry giving a total +29 dodge from items (and that awesome cloak is notably better than anything I have found so there are no guarantees you will find as good items). You haven't faced late E3 and E4 ranged enemies yet, but some of them will have *insane* accuracy and to overcome it I think you would need everything described above. Basically, to build a dodge tank Vraes, you have to dig yourself out of a hole first meaning in the end it will require more item slots and support from other team members. Other characters, such as Selen (with QsD) or Kincaid (with cunning footwork and sure parry) are much more natural dodge/parry tanks. Take Selen, for example. Lets compare her with maxed QsD versus Vraes with maxed phalanx shield. We'll assume they both have maxed dexterity so that will not be a relevant difference between them. Melee defense differences: Vraes gets +13 parry from phalanx shield plus a shield (say, +10 parry late game). Roughly +23 strong melee dice. Selen gets +16 parry and +16 dodge from QsD. The conversion factor from weak to strong dice is 3/5, so the "equivalent" number of strong parry dice she gets is 16 + 3/5*16 = +25.6. Melee conclusion: they are about the same . . . Selen might be slightly better. Ranged defense differences: Vraes get +0; If he uses heavy armor, he might get -2 to -5 strong dice due to -evasion Selen gets +16 from QsD and +7 to +10 from +evasion on high-end stealth armor totalling ~+24 strong dice. Ranged defense conclusion: Selen is way, way better! That comparison doesn't by itself tell us much since it is quite possible that Selen is overbuilt in terms of dodge. However, I can add that my experience with a maxed dex/QsD Selen with 2 items dedicated to dodge/parry, maxed SoC, and high evasion armor in late E3/E4 is that there were *still* times when I was getting hit more than I would have liked. I probably needed to dedicate all three items slots to dodge/parry or have someone work on a -accuracy curse to be comfortable all the time. So, based upon all of that information, I think that simply switching to a dex Vraes (and adding ~20 ranged dice) would still leave him well below the accuracy curve of late game ranged enemies. If you go all in with items and other talents you could make up the difference, but it would be easier with other characters. Perhaps others have different opinions or experiences, but that is what I think at the moment.
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matrim
Star Hero
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Posts: 708
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Post by matrim on Mar 10, 2016 2:17:41 GMT -5
I don't understand how you are getting hit with that Selen. I have the same build, only 1 defensive item and I got hit 4 times in total from the new expansion. 3 of those were from shamen and C8 got 1 hit, no normal mobs hit her (her and Kincaid tank roughly the same amount every fight). I prioritize AP reduction, maybe that had something to do with it?
oh I see now, I have maxed frigid air, that could do it.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 10, 2016 3:08:37 GMT -5
Dex Vraes is viable but as others have said it doesn't really work to his native abilities. Look at his talents and basic premise, he's not the flyweight dancing about dodging opponents hits while slowly taking them appart with precision hits. He's the Heavyweight brawler that says give me your best shot and uses his ability to take punishment as he fires off heavy attacks. Yes things like Phalanx Shield help him avoid some attacks but it's really his ability to have unmatched Armor and HP that make him a Tank.
You don't want to get hit take Kincaid and dance. You want to scream Charge and run things over take Vraes.
On the strength thing I'm not a math wiz but seems that talking about average damage isn't really the important factor. Higher strength effectively raises your minimum damage which means your better able to overcome any Armor rating increasing likelihood of getting at least some damage through on every hit as opposed to having it soaked. Likely more noticeable early game but still a factor later. Even with Choking Ash 10, Punishing Blows 10 etc. enemy armor can still be a huge factor and an effective increase in minimum damage can make a real difference.
Maybe a better way to look at it is that strength doesn't increase potential damage but does increase consistent damage output.
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Post by Rashar on Mar 10, 2016 5:31:41 GMT -5
samopop I know, but the original discussion was about str vraes versus dex vraes. It is only natural for true dex characters to be better in avoiding damage and I will not deny for a second that kincaid and selen can dance in attacks for days  . xdesperado Well the whole thing is about dex vraes versus strength vraes based on tanking with a shield and a 1 hander. I think on page 50 I showed the differences and posted a conclusion. If you have Vraes and use him for tanking with a shield and a 1 hander then dexterity is just better, that is not because Vraes his talents are bad but because dexterity is just overpowered. With a str build I will end up using phalanx shield 10, berserk rage 10, burst of speed 3, ferocity 1, and then there is the option to go for juggernaut or natural mastery. Thing is with a dex build I would go for the same things but he would he be able to dodge more. It is not really a case of preference, math just says that if you use a 1 hander and shield, dex vraes comes out better. I am not saying he is the best tank, it is just about str vs dex with sword and shield. I understand that Vraes was created with the idea in mind of creating a character that would have huge armor and health and to wield a 2 handed spear atleast that is what the picture of Vraes says and also how he acts in the game. Lorewise I feel it, and Vraes as 2 handed damage monster is a totally different build since he wont be tanking but that will be done by fyona/kyera or selen/tamilin. Have you read the following? Strength-Based Weapons Weapons that rely on Strength gain additional bonuses to Damage. When using a Strength-based weapon, when your damage dice is rolled the minimum roll is dictated by your Strength attribute. For 1-H Strength-based weapons (1-H Swords, Hammers, Spears) the minimum roll is 100% of your Strength. For 2-H weapons (Swords, Hammers, Spears) the minimum roll is 150% of your Strength. The bonuses for Strength-based weapons are not applied you are dual wielding, regardless of what weapon is in your primary hand. As an example, you are wielding a 1-H Spear that does 20-40 Damage. This weapon actually does 19+D21 Damage. You have 10 Strength. When the D21 is rolled, if it rolls less than a 10, the roll is modified to be a 10. If it rolls a 15, the roll stays a 15. When you have a lategame weapon and you are under the effects of berserk rage/burning blades/insert random attack the only "benefit" you get is that when you roll 1-15 your damage will be counted as 16, olé olé. So you deal like xx+d110+d36 fire damage and the benefit for having 16 str vs 16 dex is that you get atleast 16 damage where if I roll 1-15 with my dex based weapon I am "screwed"... The 100% is to low... it is atleast 100% to low to be even worth taking into consideration to be remotely decent in my opinion. Yes you are 100% right that it is more consistent, but the difference in 1-16 and atleast 16 is just neglectible. worst case scenario we both roll a 1 on the d110 but we do roll a x3 crit... ok you have 16x3 and I have 1x3 you get 45 more damage before the enemies soaks kicks in. And I do hope we can both agree that on a critical hit and especially at later stages in the game 45 damage is neglectable. Thing I am trying to say is that the argument that you will do more consistent damage is currently not strong enough because the value on minimum damage by having strength is just to low. So that is not a good reason as to why a str based vraes tank would be better. I understand kincaid/Selen are better dex tanks and I understand that Vraes is projected as this barbarian that shrugs of damage like a case of bad fleas, I am not blind to the lore. I am also not blind to the math. I have chosen the original 4 heroes and Vraes and Tamilin are tanking and I guess once I get further into act 3 I might have to reconsider and go back with my paws hanging saying that I was wrong, I am not too proud to do that at all. For me these type of discussions are about getting to the bottom of things and as a result come out with more knowledge. As for now my Vraes is str based and even with warden shield 5, phalanx shield 8, burst of speed 3 and full defence gear and kyera applying EA6 the ranged attacks still hit him. Now he survives it and worst case scenario means that kyera needs to heal him for 3ap/heal or he drink a potion. The options that I have are either increasing con/armor and he actually has stoneskin 5... (I know I know that was a noobie mistake) and con 11. So atm he is the STR tank but he does not impress me at all. That is why I originally went searching for alternatives and testing on how decent an alternative would be in the form of having dexterity and thus having 9-21 more dice to defend against ranged physical attacks or spells. With kind regards, Rashar. EDIT: I lost my post, luckily I had enabled save draft but when I restored it, some extra enters have slipped into the post, my apolagies.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 10, 2016 6:23:21 GMT -5
Rashar Curious you keep talking about Stone Skin 5 being a mistake and I don't get that at all. Yes if you're looking to simply try blocking/avoiding all attacks it's probably not worth it. But if your playing to his strengths then at 5 you're just getting warmed up. Maybe I'm missing something on terminology but for me Tank is someone that can attract and hold the focus of most of the enemies effectively shielding rest of party from the brunt of attacks. One way is obviously to be extremely hard to hit, the other way is to have the ability to take a lot of punishment. Long run Vraes will Tank better being able to take lots of damage than in an avoidance build. He'll require less investment in terms of ability points and less support from other party members. Regardless of how you build him though, true effectiveness and efficiency will only be achieved if you have all 4 heroes coordinating and working as a team, not just in battle but also in training and talent selection.
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phaze
Exemplar
Posts: 368
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Post by phaze on Mar 10, 2016 11:09:19 GMT -5
I don't understand how you are getting hit with that Selen. I have the same build, only 1 defensive item and I got hit 4 times in total from the new expansion. 3 of those were from shamen and C8 got 1 hit, no normal mobs hit her (her and Kincaid tank roughly the same amount every fight). I prioritize AP reduction, maybe that had something to do with it? oh I see now, I have maxed frigid air, that could do it. I often find different experiences of hit frequency than what others report. Clearing the latest content, my Kincaid had 56 strong dice of dodge and 28 regular. Even stacking -11 accuracy on the ogres, and more enough hits got through that made me really nervous for ironman. The shamans ranged attacks were brutal. Even the hammer guys could occasionally hit Kincaid let alone an off tank. |
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phaze
Exemplar
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Post by phaze on Mar 10, 2016 11:15:10 GMT -5
I find similar result with Vraes. My experience with an avoidance Vraes suggests far greater hit frequencies than reported by others, hence my interest in a Dex vraes as well to add more dice despite the loss of damage.
A maxed ps is good but no gaurantee even stacking gear. This was in early Ep 2, and I shudder to think about later game.
At times, I am honestly at a loss to explain our different play experiences despite many of us having a good grasp of game mechanics and using similar numbers.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 10, 2016 11:15:20 GMT -5
iirc you can have three -acc curses to improve the dodge/avoid of any character built for that. FA/MS, EA and SS. FA or MS also provide damage reductions, but FAs -acc curse is only ranged I believe. EA doesn't remove as much acc as the others but is of course also a great, if costly, -ap curse. SS is also armor removal, combines nicely with CA for high armor targets or tagging lone ranged enemies where AoE would be overkill - if with Vincent it may be your only armor removal.
That said...
Personally I like stealth, -ap and maximizing killing speed to improve party efficiency and reducing healing. The fewer combat rounds means less rebuffing and less healing, but I'm less concerned about score or ironman runs than simply having fun while still being effective.
If you really want dex Vraes though consider adding more BoS and two of those -acc cursing overtime. Between high phalanx, BoS, gear and -acc cursing you should still tank ok late game.
The two main reasons for str based Vraes imo are the quicker access to max acc and for higher effectiveness clearing the board of particularly high armor opposition via higher damage, more from the weapons than the str late game. From the point of 3/4 thru episode one until high end juggernaut opens up dex Vraes is probably indeed better if you have sufficient armor and/or resistance removal and/or foregoing phalanx for dual wielding.
Early game the extra damage and acc from Str matters, and later higher juggernaut doesn't really need more attacks than what it gets with a 2ap weapon most of the time - you can choose dex or str based in that case, but str gives a little extra to help ensure kills for jugg's bonuses.
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Post by CdrPlatypus on Mar 10, 2016 15:21:21 GMT -5
xdesperado , RasharStoneskin is great for any Vraes build as the game progresses especially on nightmare. Not only the added HP and armour, which can help you survive the inevitable hits that get through, but also the Earth Resist will come in handy.
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