Ongoing babble (aka more thoughts)

[slayernz]

So far loving the game and all the little things that make it both deep and complex and absorbing all the same. As I'm playing, I am finding a few more things to comment on and rather than send out a half-dozen different threads, I thought I'd continue the tradition of lumping them all into one messy thread again (sheeesh, Slayer, you've already resurrected old threads, commented on things already concluded, and even mentioned Stargate. Stop already). No... this cat cannot be stopped!

1) Stargate references. There are none. Probably a good thing, so disregard this. No, I haven't had my coffee this morning - perhaps that is why I'm a little odder than usual .... THAN USUAL I said just before you say "You're ALWAYS odd"

2) Starting Factions.
I'm still struggling to get my head around starting as ALL the Syndicates or ALL the Houses (once that is enabled). I know we've discussed that (although I was hunting for the thread to resurrect and couldn't find it). Every other 4X game I've played, I am only playing one faction. I'm one of the leaders of that faction and get into the mentality that pervades that faction. Yes, there are similar factions to me, but I build up relations with them by trading, diplomacy, or by nuking them. Okay the last thing probably doesn't HELP relationships, but is still an option all the same.

You're meant to be one person in charge. Each faction is distinct and has advantages/disadvantages. You should be able to be ONE faction and take advantage of the benefits that faction offers
- De Valtos: +1 exchange upgrade automatic in every colony
- Cadar: +2 military techs already researched and available
- Rychart: +$20 from each new planet due to the burgeoning hat manufacturing business
- Thulun: +2 spy points from each planet due to the hoity toity royal family wanting to stick their noses into everything
- Javat: +1 mine upgrade automatic in every colony
- Steel Song: +1 Alien races wanting to come and kill you. Oh wait, that's just a large colony of cats

Playing a single faction really does make the most sense because you are able to discover the locations of the other factions, and can build or destroy relationships properly. If you are controlling all three factions and trying to protect them all, then you're going to end up with a homogeneous view of ST, ie, all syndicates are the same. Worse, when you've played a lot of ST 4x and have all of the syndicates working with eachother for hundreds of years, then play ST and find they are at solar war and trade embargo with eachother, you go "What, hey, how the hell did that change so suddenly?!?"

3) Tech Tree
I still love the tech tree concept, but think that some things need to be potentially bought forward in the tree, OR you should be able to research a bit more flexibly. Case in point, in order to get a slightly improved mine, you've got to research 5 levels of construction, including learning how to build a spice den, a trade summit, and an UPGRADED spice den! Infrastructure before improvements in the night life please!

SO - either move the mining upgrade to something earlier than spice den 2 upgrade, or add mining 2 to one of the earlier construction unlocks.

4) Research UI
When you go into the research section of the UI and select any of the icons at the top (tech tree, Theoretical tech, etc), because it doesn't light up at all, you don't initially realize that they are just different tabs. SO when you press the "back" button, you expect to find yourself back in "current research" but instead find yourself back in the galaxy map. It's a very minor niggle, and one you're probably going to address somewhere right?

5) Empire Summary
After you have spent a whopping 10 seconds of your life (that you never get back) on creating a creative name for your game, it would be cool if you could see your name in the "Team List" screen. "What? There's a team list screen?" I hear you exclaim. Yeah, you press on the stylized alien vs predator square icon beside the hazard triangle icon. Then you press on the ≡ button beside the big "Factions" button.


6) Explorer discoveries
Not a gripe, but more a curiosity. IF you explore a site and it gives you a reward (eg +50CP), do you have the opportunity to select WHICH project that goes towards, OR do you have the option to hold onto that CP bonus until you are ready to use it? Also, is it like a gift voucher where if a project takes 20CP to complete and you use a +50CP bonus, do you waste 30CP or does the 30CP go towards the next project you kick off?


That's all for me right now ... I've beaten the #2 around the head before and I suspect I might revisit it again down the track because I still strongly believe that ST AND ST4x should be about one person guiding one faction.

[Cory Trese]

2)
We made the very intention decision to answer #2 with: In ST you must play as AT least 3 Factions.

"Every other 4X game I've played" ... Exactly. This isn't going to change and it's the core central theme of 4X.

We will keep working on improving the politics and Conflicts engine. As a long time player of ST 4X, you'll be well aware of the dangers of Faction conflicts, with or without a Templar Fleet guarding your quadrant.


3)
The Tech Tree in Star Traders 4X is one of recovery, not discovery. It is shaped by different forces and will be introduced and guided by different factors than one that is purely intended to be a civilization spending years developing new technologist powers.

4)
Working on explaining it better is part of the tutorial and adviser. I will look at the back button and see if I can give you what you are asking about without disturbing any of the user flows.

5) That button will be removed in the next phase.

6) Nope, they're applied immediately. You will have control over which Faction gets the boost when you build Explorers that aren't flagged as Templars.

[kyleobrien]

If I'm not mistaking the reason for playing as all of the syndicates or houses is there is some sort of empire thingy running it all trying to survive the bugger's...Xenos..whatever. Also the fractions will start fighting among themselves and you have to be the one to keep them from nuking each other. But maybe a single fraction gameplay could be added later on as an IAP or something.

[Cory Trese]

May 13, 2014 18:47:20 GMT -5 kyleobrien said:

If I'm not mistaking the reason for playing as all of the syndicates or houses is there is some sort of empire thingy running it all trying to survive the bugger's...Xenos..whatever. Also the fractions will start fighting among themselves and you have to be the one to keep them from nuking each other. But maybe a single fraction gameplay could be added later on as an IAP or something.

You are so right on!

Running it all trying to survive the bugger horde.

Like ST where you balance Reputation, Rank, Rumor, Conflict, Ship, Morale, Health, Water-Fuel.

In 4X you will master Population, Trade, Rumor, Conflict, Ships, Morale, Colonies ...

If you only had one Faction it would cripple your economy -- it would be like a game in ST without Reputation.

[John Robinson]

May 13, 2014 18:42:48 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

The Tech Tree in Star Traders 4X is one of recovery, not discovery. It is shaped by different forces and will be introduced and guided by different factors than one that is purely intended to be a civilization spending years developing new technologist powers.

For me, making the Tech Tree based on recovery really makes it stand out from the crowd of 4x games. A really brilliant concept.
The shattered tattered civilization trying desperately to pull together and recover the power it once took for granted.

I once read a trilogy that started with a book named "Coyote", ST 4x gives that same feeling of overcoming hopeless
abandonment. Ripped from warm beds, now shivering in the cold rain building crude shelters on frightening alien worlds.

Cory & Andrew well done! You are creating yet another of your games with suspense, and intrigue, that I can sink into
like a dream.

[Cory Trese]

To help with initial population management, the following rules are now in place

"On Normal and Basic, all Hive Starports will support 3 Population."

[slayernz]

Oh cool. Another option would be that when you make a colony ship, you take 1 unit away from the population to denote the new passengers. It would kind of work like the settler unit for Civilization

[nails]

May 14, 2014 2:19:47 GMT -5 slayernz said:

Oh cool. Another option would be that when you make a colony ship, you take 1 unit away from the population to denote the new passengers. It would kind of work like the settler unit for Civilization

This.

It also makes sense.
to colonize a new planet, you should have to take people with you.
it isn't like you drop a colonization pod on the surface and people are there just waiting for you to give them shelter.

It would likely lead to a lot of DV colonies.
Their ships should be shaped like rabbit cages.

[muk]

May 14, 2014 2:19:47 GMT -5 slayernz said:

Oh cool. Another option would be that when you make a colony ship, you take 1 unit away from the population to denote the new passengers. It would kind of work like the settler unit for Civilization

Plus this would provide a great way to curb overpopulation 

Is there a way to improve the quality of a planet?  I'm trying to figure that out... Around 3.5AE, I'm having a lot of overpopulation/economy issues on my initial planets. 

[fallen]

muk - there will be higher in the tech tree. There will be a few options in that direction, including terraforming parts of the solar system

[contributor]

May 13, 2014 18:42:48 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

2)
We made the very intention decision to answer #2 with: In ST you must play as AT least 3 Factions.

"Every other 4X game I've played" ... Exactly. This isn't going to change and it's the core central theme of 4X.

We will keep working on improving the politics and Conflicts engine. As a long time player of ST 4X, you'll be well aware of the dangers of Faction conflicts, with or without a Templar Fleet guarding your quadrant.


3)
The Tech Tree in Star Traders 4X is one of recovery, not discovery. It is shaped by different forces and will be introduced and guided by different factors than one that is purely intended to be a civilization spending years developing new technologist powers.

4)
Working on explaining it better is part of the tutorial and adviser. I will look at the back button and see if I can give you what you are asking about without disturbing any of the user flows.

5) That button will be removed in the next phase.

6) Nope, they're applied immediately. You will have control over which Faction gets the boost when you build Explorers that aren't flagged as Templars.

I'm very interested to see how this play-as-three-factions thing works out. I think it could be a make or break it issue for this game and I hope it really makes it. I know we're in a limited phase of the alpha, but I'm already feeling very little pull to start a new game, because their is not a lot that I can change other than difficulty settings. One advantage to a game like MOOII that had like 8 different races and the possibility of setting the number of opponents was the ability to create very different games. Will it be a one on one slug fest or will it be 6 player game full of political maneuvering to come out on top. Will you win through technological mastery, intrigue or producing swarms of ships in your factories? So far in ST4X I'm getting the sneaking the feeling that every game is going to be pretty much like the previous one.

Anyways I say this to give Cory Trese and fallen some feedback. I'm very much looking forward to seeing how you've implemented your whole vision and what fun managing factions can be. If it's a success then ST4X will be a very unique addition to the canon of 4X games so far.

[Cory Trese]

That's really interesting. What gives you the impression that each game will be the same?

Do you play the same map each time? Have you only pulled the same set of starting Xeno AI?

Do you think selecting each Faction will help?

Very different game than MOII but they have the same multiple ways to win math at the core.

Will you win by coordinating your factions perfectly, upgrading the planets to a perfect mix, designing the best ships, outsmarting the xeno or simply dominate them technologically?

[kyleobrien]

Cory Trese contributor I get where lurker is coming from. If you are a brand new person the Trese brother games after a few games it will see like the same thing. This is why I love ST so much. I can be a ruthless pirate one game then peace loving explorer. You can change your game so radically from one to the next. Right now 4X doesn't have that. But when we add other fractions in will help a lot. My thing is I would love to be able to play with all 6. Maybe 6 fractions no Xenos, or 3 fractions 4 Xenos. I guess I think lurker is trying to say that the level of customization that Trese Brother games are known for isnt quite here yet in the game.

[Cory Trese]

May 16, 2014 15:26:25 GMT -5 kyleobrien said:

Cory Trese contributor I get where lurker is coming from. If you are a brand new person the Trese brother games after a few games it will see like the same thing. This is why I love ST so much. I can be a ruthless pirate one game then peace loving explorer. You can change your game so radically from one to the next. Right now 4X doesn't have that. But when we add other fractions in will help a lot. My thing is I would love to be able to play with all 6. Maybe 6 fractions no Xenos, or 3 fractions 4 Xenos. I guess I think lurker is trying to say that the level of customization that Trese Brother games are known for isnt quite here yet in the game.

I guess I'm just looking at the game from a different perspective.

I hope that the upcoming Alpha Phases and market release will help everyone else see what I do.

For me, there are already a dozen styles of play. Please keep posting your thoughts, I will keep incorporating them.

And remember, even the peace loving Explorer has to have a combat strategy in ST, or they won't last long.

[Deleted]

I'm liking this incarnation more. In fact its interesting to see the differences from version to version, whats added. I think i see wbat Kyle means in how new games can be so alike from past plays, with seemingly only your starting place on the map and that of the xenos being different. In games like warcraft there was terrain features, even randomly generated ones that could be exploited defense and offensively which made for great replay value. In space, games like Star Trek Armada used nebulae, black holes, radioactive dust clouds, ect as a stand in for strategic terrain. I think randomly generated hazards like this would go a long way to make the gameplay fresh.