Switching places

[narana]

 I would really like it if there was a way for 2 adjacent characters to switch places, even if it cost 2 move points for each.

[En1gma]

Seconded! That would be sweet!

[nolost]

I don't know, it's also a key element to manage and it adds to complexity/depth to not have this at price of 2 AP (for each character?). For me not have this makes the maneuvering more interesting. But I'd like other stuff that could also break this system. So I don't know. :-)

For example push-back enemies. But I don't think it's the same level, not sure.

[Cory Trese]

The drive back talents are a lot of fun to use.

The original post is about MP not AP =)

[nolost]

Yeah yeah MP :-) There's some push back talents? I didn't noticed it yet. I searched among the posts one covering new abilities and noticed none. But eventually it's difficult to add new talents from a class/build/balance design point of view. With the classes I had choose I felt the game didn't exploited many possibilities, then noticed in other classes a stuff like line damages. So there's also push back, that's cool.

[nolost]

Yeah yeah MP :-) There's some push back talents? I didn't noticed it yet. I searched among the posts one covering new abilities and noticed none. But eventually it's difficult to add new talents from a class/build/balance design point of view. With the classes I had choose I felt the game didn't exploited many possibilities, then noticed in other classes a stuff like line damages. So there's also push back, that's cool.

[contributor]

I don't think there are pushback talents yet. I think Cory Trese is probably playing with an early version of Kincaid and forgets that the rest of don't get access to the same stuff he has yet. Or maybe it comes in through gear.

[Brutus Aurelius]

Probably. Who knows what the code zone has done to his brain?

[nolost]

Jun 4, 2014 3:55:50 GMT -5 contributor said:

I don't think there are pushback talents yet. I think Cory Trese is probably playing with an early version of Kincaid and forgets that the rest of don't get access to the same stuff he has yet. Or maybe it comes in through gear.

That was possible because honestly I'm arguing on the game (gently I hope) without to have explored it fully. But I'm deep into my first play so I'm not yet about examining deeply all classes and talents, plan/setup precise party building or level up plans.

Pushback addition can cause a lot of bugs, or can generate more complexity than it seems. Example you push back in a hole, push back in diagonal and there's a corner in back, push back in series, more.

There's an element I enjoy a lot exploit and discover more deeply, it's the maneuvering, this is greatly reinforce by ability to use any AP/MP when you want and what character you want, plus all the special AOE, in fact I regret by anticipation when AOE area will be larger than the cross. :-) Also the positioning agro system reinforce the maneuvering depth, but I'd wish have it as complex in long range than in close range.

But I quote the game, despite combats are quite fun for me, doesn't use many classical possibilities. So push back (could also be surround push back ie sort of AOE pushback), but also clouds (require implement a whole new thing to figure clouds), slippery grounds, stun but AP subtract is approaching, poison, agro specific tools (but seems there's some base mechanisms mainly, but probably not only, through positioning), jump (switch is different), teleport, surrounding system like penalties when being surrounded or bonus when making a front line, attack of opportunity, more.

I'm not saying that add all will make the system better, eventually some will break other stuff working well, and each addition will require reconsider balances. But it's a point that is a little difficult to sell when you want argue about the fun of combats. And seeing the list of mechanics not really big it's not easy to explain why combats are quite good anyway. For now I think it's hugely about positioning management where the game achieve something quite rare and the spreading of attacks mechanisms is I think also an important element. But I'll have to wait episode 2 because without Attack of opportunity or block rule system, and enemies that don't stop at first contact with opponent I want see the result. Also AOE becoming larger will probably remove a bit of complexity.

[contributor]

nolost, good points. I think you'll find the combat in episode 2 only gets more interesting. In one group I brought Vincent's Lightening Spear up to 10 in episode 1. Even with that there were still a lot of challenges. At certain times he was absolutely decimating enemies, but I still ended up with a good number of deaths in the Underforge.

The point about arguing is good. I think that polite arguments about game mechanics are one of the most important things on this forum. We should argue our points when we see something that could be awesome, but we should also be willing to lose arguments at times too. Good arguments make better games, bad arguments where people demand that their idea be implement probably zaps all the fun of creating them for Cory and Andrew.

At the end of the day it's their games and they need to be able to follow their specific vision for how the games they want to make. Trying to incorporate all the ideas in the forums would make for some bizarre, broken games. Not listening at all would limit their creativity leave some big holes, where they don't see things like the community does.

[Swami]

nolost all those AoEs and other kaka are d&d 3.0 plus. Old school RP didn't have that stuff. This game (imho) is more "old school" like AD&D and Second Edition. Pool of Radiance is an inspiration for fallen and Cory Trese if I recall correctly.

[Cory Trese]

nolost -- how far have you gotten in the game? So many of your posts confuse me a lot and I'm not sure how to respond.

not the feedback is any more or less valuable as a result, just asking for context.

[nolost]

Jun 4, 2014 7:26:29 GMT -5 contributor said:

nolost, good points. I think you'll find the combat in episode 2 only gets more interesting. In one group I brought Vincent's Lightening Spear up to 10 in episode 1. Even with that there were still a lot of challenges. At certain times he was absolutely decimating enemies, but I still ended up with a good number of deaths in the Underforge.

The point about arguing is good. I think that polite arguments about game mechanics are one of the most important things on this forum. We should argue our points when we see something that could be awesome, but we should also be willing to lose arguments at times too. Good arguments make better games, bad arguments where people demand that their idea be implement probably zaps all the fun of creating them for Cory and Andrew.

At the end of the day it's their games and they need to be able to follow their specific vision for how the games they want to make. Trying to incorporate all the ideas in the forums would make for some bizarre, broken games. Not listening at all would limit their creativity leave some big holes, where they don't see things like the community does.

Yeah good point, but it still worth throw comments or different point of view, anyway creation is never from nothing, best ideas are bounces from other ideas. But yeah any comment or suggestion I do isn't on a point of view that they must be done, nor that the game will necessarily be better with them. The game is a whole and the vision of designers is important.

Jun 4, 2014 9:20:04 GMT -5 Swami said:

nolost all those AoEs and other kaka are d&d 3.0 plus. Old school RP didn't have that stuff. This game (imho) is more "old school" like AD&D and Second Edition. Pool of Radiance is an inspiration for fallen and Cory Trese if I recall correctly.

Attack of opportunity of area of effect? I'm pretty sure Pool of Radiance had clouds. For attack of opportunity, perhaps not.

Kaka??. :-) In my language it's a little impolite, some good behaviors are welcome. ;-)

I haven't played Pool of Radiance since a very long time and I don't think I would be able mainly because I can't enjoy anymore make manual map. It would be an original main influence despite it's a common acceptation that it's a significant classic. I don't think much games claimed it as an influence since many many years.

[Swami]

I did mean AoO(Attack of Opportunity), sorry. My brain being fuzzy.

[nolost]

Yeah I guess it because I constantly do the error, not sure why, and I probably led you in doing the same error. :-)