New Ship List

[slayernz]

Hey gearheadwhat ... my understanding is that it is a measure of the overall power of the ship (size + engine/sail ratio + weapons + crew + hull) and NOT a Stat per-se. It's basically a calculation based on the current ship stats. You can see that the more powerful ships certainly have a higher ENG value. However, that's about as much of an explanation as you are probably going to get, and are probably entitled to get. It's just one way to measure a ship's value compared to similar vessels, but not the ONLY way. Depending on your playing style, you might rate ships with larger cargo with great engines/sails ratio but and fewer weapons better than a ship with smaller cargo and larger numbers of weapons ... or vice-versa .

As to transparency - I think Cory's been probably more transparent than you'll ever get from any closed-source developer on the planet! So he doesn't reveal the exact formula used to calculate ENG. He also doesn't give you the exact formulas used to calculate what will be in urban exchanges too, but you don't need that level of visibility into the mechanics.

[gearheadwhat]

I understand that. I suppose one thing I like from games like side meyers alpha centauri is that you have access to all the formulas used. I am not asking that really, but at least what the calculation is for, in a simple description, it doesn't have to be detailed. Just a statement like you gave (relative ship worth) aside from flat out cost, would honestly suffice.

But like I said, that's just me. Clearly I love the game and greatly appreciate all the work that has gone into the game. I appreciate it more now that I know there is depth to it however. It was seemingly random and frustrating at first however. The forums changed my mind, not the gameplay. It was seeing descriptions of what was going into the game as factors that was intriguing, not necessarily knowing how many metal in my hold I needed, but that metal and crystal helped. Same kind of thing here really.

But yeah. It clearly is something I care about far more than other posters here.

[Cory Trese]

Goodness, I do apologize for the ill will created. I posted what I thought was a joke ...

"I cannot tell you" -- as opposed to "I will not tell you"

The joke I was trying to make was that I couldn't tell you because I had lost to meaning of the value in some distant math haze.

I will collect my thoughts and return to this thread with a positive outlook at some point in the future.

gearheadwhat -- I do not want to "leave a bad taste" in anyone's mouth, that is certainly not my goal. Please understand that the design of Star Traders RPG is to satisfy a broad group of people -- some of whom are far less interested in the mathematical backing of the game than we are.

I am really working to keep my outlook on this forum and the dialog as positive as possible. I am sad that the game play is not to your liking and I am always working to extract actionable suggestions from the forum.

I understand that access to all of the underlying math would be a neat feature, but give the screen size, design compromises and our small development staff that request is a very, very tall order.

Of course we should all keep in mind that this is the first game I ever made. I am not Sid Meyer and I don't have any illusions that I am.

I have designed two games in my time. Star Traders RPG and Cyber Knights RPG. I feel like Cyber Knights RPG includes many lessons learned for Star Traders RPG and I hope to be able to do a better job with the design, rules, publication of internals and other customer service issues in the future.

Thanks for your time. I will return later to speak directly to the equation and reasoning behind the ENG statistic.

[Cory Trese]

The "ENG" or "System::Crew Utilization & Signature Scale" is calculated as follows

=(SUM(engine + solar + guns) * (N46+P46+U46)

given that

N46
=(HULL*2.6/((ENGINE+SOLAR)*0.85))

P46
=(SOLAR/ENGINE)

U46
=(SUM(ENGINE,SOLAR,TORPS,GUNS)/(CREW))

[Cory Trese]

ENG Scalar Design Goal:

Average: 256
Max: 512
Min: 96

[sgtcookie]

But what does it DO?

[Cory Trese]

It is used as part of the signature calculation.

Ships below average are more stealthy.

Ships with more than the average are less stealthy.

[Cory Trese]

slayernz -- can you please remove the column from the wiki. I'm updating the sheet wherever I can find it, but if you could get the wiki that would be sweet.

I will take some extra time to really validate the double check the columns in any future ship data updates so that this doesn't happen again.

I'm really sorry for all the confusion that it has caused and I'll be extra careful in the future to take extra time and be more careful with data releases like this.

I agree with sgtcookie and gearheadwhat, it does add fun to see values that you cannot explain.

I am sorry that happened and I tried to post a fair and in-depth explanation of it.

The lesson learned here is to be more careful with when / how we release these ship lists.

I hope to be able to do a better job with the design, rules, publication of internals and other customer service issues in the future.

[Cory Trese]

Here is the updated spreadsheet with only values that are used in game.

Attachments:

[slayernz]

Wiki is updated.

I was tempted to add another column with cryptic numbers to see if anyone was paying attention - but the sensible Cadar part of me decided not to

[phantum]

Mate! Why push Cory to explain himself here?

The main point should be "Thanks heaps Cory for posting a list of ship stats that is uptodate from the game code to replace our own scribbled notes. Let's not make it harder for him posting info like that in the future. I realise no one (I hope) intended provocation, but we should realise Cory goes the extra mile to try and keep everyone happy


We trust that he has our best interests at heart deciding what info is worth releasing, and what is of no help to us or he thinks we will enjoy the game more as a secret! He had previously TOLD us the things that we should be concerned about with our signature.

Thanks again for the info Cory, particularly about the starting ships as I had not realised they had changed again The real spreadsheet has let me ditch a whole lot of other files and notes of changes.

[Cory Trese]

I do not mind the pushing for explanations. I appreciate the passion for math because I share it with gear head.

I think it was unfortunate that we got into discussing one particular formula, but that was my fault.

I feel that we are close to completing the core game manual.

Hopefully that document will lay a lot of ground work and we can continue to explore the explainable components of the game.

I do try to have the player's best interest at heart. I am (seriously) working on a "Signature Display" request so that the player can see the ship's in game Signature in some meaningful value / scale.

Without that in place, it is my fear that talking about the ENG value is only going to stoke negativity about the game because it is just a value that we cannot, no matter how much we talk, truly connect to your game.

For that connection to happen you need an in game display that takes into account skill, ship, ENG (+11 other factors,) the space/orbit you are in, the turn of the game, the difficulty of the game, if you are elite, if you are in a big ship, if you are in a ... that list goes on for like 400 lines of code. ENG shows up several times, but does the formula I posted really *explain* anything? Not really, which is why I regret even naming / releasing that stat.

[gearheadwhat]

@ Cory

Well, I'm not saying that I'm dissatisfied with the game I love it

But my point, is it would be nice to at least know what the formulas mean (even if they don't have a full breakdown)

Mostly what I'm hinting at, is like an advanced user manual, that you just said you were close to completing. Which is really all I'm asking for

I would have been happy just having you state at the beginning that it had to do with your overall signature or that it was just part of a signature formula

[leuthesius]

I see that as I already own the Royal Class Cruiser, there are no better ships for agility and speed with good cargo capacity and crew, with heavy sails/engines.

Are more ships going to be added?

[Cory Trese]

yes more ships will be added.

several people have asked for the Royals to be nerf'd and I'm considering a balance on that ship tree.

however, even ships balancing won't impact your owned ships, just new ones.

so i guess if you feel like the game is over because you have that one ship then ... ?