athios
Templar
[ Star Traders 2 Supporter ]
Posts: 1,611 
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Post by athios on Apr 4, 2017 17:51:02 GMT -5
Indeed, the entire set of starting conditions is all about tradeoff. No matter what you pick, there's going to be something you have to stick in E, and that's what you're going to suck at, in the beginning. This template pretty much sacrifices the quality/XP of the starting crew for a high-attribute captain. It's a self-imposed handicap in a way. But if you manage to get by for 1-2 levels (which doesn't take too long), that'll give you enough roll-save and "running away" Talents to significantly boost your success. ----- That aside, grävling are you suggesting that Priority B ships should start the game with more crew? |
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Post by grävling on Apr 5, 2017 1:06:32 GMT -5
Indeed, the entire set of starting conditions is all about tradeoff. No matter what you pick, there's going to be something you have to stick in E, and that's what you're going to suck at, in the beginning. This template pretty much sacrifices the quality/XP of the starting crew for a high-attribute captain. It's a self-imposed handicap in a way. But if you manage to get by for 1-2 levels (which doesn't take too long), that'll give you enough roll-save and "running away" Talents to significantly boost your success. ----- That aside, grävling are you suggesting that Priority B ships should start the game with more crew? No, I am only saying that I was surprised that there wasn't a 'set minimum number of crew members of each starting profession', so when I got no gunners I thought I had a bug. It surprised me, that is all. I actually think the opposite about more starting crew. The problem isn't 'too few crew' -- it is 'too many weapons'. I think that all starting ships should start with only 2 weapons (maybe even 2 torpedoes), and plenty of 'null components' -- things that clearly do nothing and cost nothing and are there to be replaced when you figure out what you would like to add. Lots of specialist modules for explorers, spies, and other people heading off to do the mini-games a lot. Passenger cabins for those intending to spend a lot of time in the diplomatic service. Prisoner cells for those who want to transport prisoners. More cargo space for merchants. I'm finding it useful to run larger ships understaffed w.r.t. their barracks-size, as long as they aren't so understaffed that they are rolling nothing but weak dice. They level faster, and cost less to maintain. When you have trained your crew up quite a bit, and invested in a lot of ship-combat talents, then is the time to turn it into a man-o-violent-war if you intend to engage in a lot of ship combat. (And if you don't intend to, you may never want all that much in the way of weapons, because you'd rather purchase components designed to let to escape ship combat rather then win it.) Gun bunnies want a different setup than people who want to board the enemies.People who are into piracy-for-profit (so want intact ships to ransom and lots of cargo) will want a different build than those who just want to kill all the faction enemies. Who knows what Xeno Hunters will want? I still haven't found the talent and component combination that goes with 'I want to maintain position at 4 or 5 lengths away, shoot my nasty torpedos at you for 3 rounds, and if you aren't dead yet, run like heck', but I strongly suspect there is one. I didn't know about barrel roll until relatively recently, and it looks good for this, and my next attempt at building one of these is going to have 2 officers with mechanic/engineer talents. Ah the joy of a TB game.  |
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Post by Cory Trese on Apr 5, 2017 11:05:00 GMT -5
Earlier iterations of the ship designs had far fewer weapons. It was dreadful and we moved forward to the current layout.
There are good reasons not to start the player in a crippled or under-built ship.
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athios
Templar
[ Star Traders 2 Supporter ]
Posts: 1,611
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Post by athios on Apr 5, 2017 12:17:47 GMT -5
I was thinking about this last night too. Being understaffed and having failed dice rolls in the very beginning is something you can easily fix without needing too much upfront cost (hire extra people, minor repairs & healing). And your crew will reach their first level quite soon, giving you roll-save skills that will help even if you are still below 100%.
On the other hand, adding on weapons if your ship started with only Torps would cost 5000-7500 creds, not something you have "spare" in early game.
And weapons can make a big difference, especially if you run into an enemy that is aggressively advancing. If you don't have anything to shoot them with, you're just a sitting duck.
All that said, I do wonder about the Range 1-2 weapons that come installed by default. I do question the need for those.
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Post by grävling on Apr 5, 2017 13:07:49 GMT -5
I'd rather have the money than the weapons, but maybe that is just me.
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Post by Alex Fury on Apr 5, 2017 14:11:12 GMT -5
I've never had much of a problem with either the scout size, or the larger sizes. While I might be a little bit short for the first 50 turns or so, that's about it.
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athios
Templar
[ Star Traders 2 Supporter ]
Posts: 1,611
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Post by athios on Apr 5, 2017 14:41:44 GMT -5
I'd rather have the money than the weapons, but maybe that is just me. I think this is just a case of comparing what we (combat avoiders) would like on our ideal starting ship, vs. the default ship loadout that seems to be aimed for versatility for the entire range of starting professions. Our ideal ship wouldn't be suitable for a Pirate or Bounty Hunter who wants to start the game going in guns-blazing. The default loadout isn't ideal for anyone, but it's middle ground that works okay until you can reconfigure to what you want. |
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Post by fallen on Apr 5, 2017 14:51:56 GMT -5
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Post by Cory Trese on Apr 5, 2017 15:02:42 GMT -5
I've never had much of a problem with either the scout size, or the larger sizes. While I might be a little bit short for the first 50 turns or so, that's about it. I think that is the average experience. There are outliers in the data, of course, but on average people reach full staffing before 80 turns. |
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Post by grävling on Apr 5, 2017 15:46:03 GMT -5
I'd rather have the money than the weapons, but maybe that is just me. I think this is just a case of comparing what we (combat avoiders) would like on our ideal starting ship, vs. the default ship loadout that seems to be aimed for versatility for the entire range of starting professions. Our ideal ship wouldn't be suitable for a Pirate or Bounty Hunter who wants to start the game going in guns-blazing. The default loadout isn't ideal for anyone, but it's middle ground that works okay until you can reconfigure to what you want. Hmmm. I am a Bounty Hunter who wants to start the game going in guns-blazing, but I have learned that the guns you start off with are attractive nuisances. If you use them, you will get your ship damaged, and therein lies bankruptcy. You need to wait until you have much better talents before you use them, and, well, by that time you can afford to replace them with something better. So maybe my problem is that I don't fight well enough? And if I were better at it, the starting weapons wouldn't look like a collection of dullest-knives-in-the-drawer? Or that a few dreadful early experiences have lead me to avoid early game combat more than I should? |
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Post by fallen on Apr 5, 2017 15:47:41 GMT -5
OHmmm. I am a Bounty Hunter who wants to start the game going in guns-blazing, but I have learned that the guns you start off with are attractive nuisances. If you use them, you will get your ship damaged, and therein lies bankruptcy. You need to wait until you have much better talents before you use them, and, well, by that time you can afford to replace them with something better. That is really odd. My pirate starts with guns blazing and uses the default weapons in every ship in the game. And I rarely update them, I like to update all the other ship stuff first. |
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Post by grävling on Apr 5, 2017 15:57:14 GMT -5
I got killed doing this with fake-xenos early on, many releases ago, (before they gave good loot) 3 times in a row. I decided that ship-combat was something that you did later, not as early as I was trying it.
Maybe that was the wrong conclusion to draw?
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Post by fallen on Apr 5, 2017 16:05:13 GMT -5
grävling - depends what you are doing in combat and why. You need to make money early on in the game. If you're fighting and making money doing it, then you're doing well. If you're just running around attacking Bounty Hunters, good luck!
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Post by grävling on Apr 5, 2017 16:07:28 GMT -5
grävling - depends what you are doing in combat and why. You need to make money early on in the game. If you're fighting and making money doing it, then you're doing well. If you're just running around attacking Bounty Hunters, good luck! I was working on the principle of 'I won't attack them unless they attacked me first' at the time. Xenos, even the fake sort are terribly obliging that way.  But repair bills meant that I found a strategy of early game 'diplomat service, bounty warrants while you figure out where you can make money as a merchant, then merchant' to work far better as a strategy of advancement than paths that included getting holes in my ship. The engineer profession has improved this a whole lot, but repairs still cost! By the way: If my faction is in a solar war with some other faction, do I get extra points for killing the ships I meet owned by that other faction? or is that just STRPG? What about Duel of Assassins? |
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Post by Cory Trese on Apr 5, 2017 16:11:11 GMT -5
Fake Xenos are just regular old Pirates today. With extra hostility and bad attitudes  |
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But repair bills meant that I found a strategy of early game 'diplomat service, bounty warrants while you figure out where you can make money as a merchant, then merchant' to work far better as a strategy of advancement than paths that included getting holes in my ship. The engineer profession has improved this a whole lot, but repairs still cost!