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Post by grävling on Apr 28, 2017 1:09:14 GMT -5
 I got jumped by a pirate. I fought. I destroyed his hull in combat. (Not after combat). I used expert scavenger on the remains. WOW, what a huge amount of rep to lose. Same amount as if he had surrendered, and then I blew him up, I think. I think that blowing up surrendered people so you can salvage the remains should be considered a war crime, and you should suffer a major loss of reputation if you do this. But if you blow them up in self-defense, this is just war, and so rep loss should be minimal. I'd remove the line break before 'Only debris' in the preamble, as well. |
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Post by fallen on Apr 28, 2017 8:46:21 GMT -5
In the deep of space, what is the difference?
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Post by grävling on Apr 28, 2017 9:05:08 GMT -5
In the deep of space, what is the difference? My intent, of course. |
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athios
Templar
[ Star Traders 2 Supporter ]
Posts: 1,611 
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Post by athios on Apr 28, 2017 9:06:48 GMT -5
By the way, I think it already got fixed for certain combat win conditions (I saw one yesterday), but in the screenshot above, it still doesn't mention which Faction the Pirate ship is from.
grävling, does your Captain have low Charisma?
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Post by fallen on Apr 28, 2017 9:06:59 GMT -5
Yep  Unfortunately, I am not sure that I see any difference in how your actions would be perceived by the Faction. Intent is great, but it doesn't always change the outcome. But maybe I am confused or don't understand the explanation you gave above. |
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Post by grävling on Apr 28, 2017 9:24:55 GMT -5
athios -- the reverse, 26 charisma here. Okay, I am a merchant or an explorer, quietly going about my own business. Or I am a military officer whose job it is to protect merchants and explorers from rapacious pirates. A rapacious pirate attacks me. We fight. As part of the action, I land a shot that destroys the hull of the ship. What do I expect people to think? Mostly, well, that is what Pirates get for being Pirates. If you are going to go around attacking ships, eventually you will attack somebody who can fight back, and you may pay the ultimate penalty for that. For me, minor reputation loss (if that). Some people will even think I deserve a medal. Next case. I am a merchant or an explorer quietly going about my own business. Or I am a military officer whose job it is to protect merchants and explorers from rapacious pirates. A rapacious pirate attacks me. We fight. The ship surrenders, intact. I have the choice of many options here, including ransoming the crew, pressing them, etc. I choose to blow up the ship and kill everybody on board, in cold blood, either because I think salvaging will yield me more money than ransom, or because I am angered that they dared attack me in the first place, or just because as a matter of personal policy I kill all pirates I meet. What do I expect people to think? Some of them will think that a dead pirate, or even a ship's worth of dead pirates, is no particular loss, but they will all think that I am a bloodthirsty devil and savage violator of the social mores and norms of ship warfare. This is a war crime, or something very close to one. For me, major reputation loss.
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Post by fallen on Apr 28, 2017 9:30:00 GMT -5
grävling - thanks for the feedback! We'll keep working to improve. I am sure we can add more nuance to the system. However, destroying a ship, either way, is still destroying a ship with all hands.
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Post by Brutus Aurelius on Apr 28, 2017 9:36:17 GMT -5
grävling I think the key difference here is between destroying the ship in the heat of battle, and destroying them in cold blood after they have surrendered.
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Post by fallen on Apr 28, 2017 9:37:41 GMT -5
grävling I think the key difference here is between destroying the ship in the heat of battle, and destroying them in cold blood after they have surrendered. Yes, that is what grävling is pointing out. We may eventually have time to go back and look at that closer, but for the moment, the result in longer term Reputation loss is the same. |
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Post by grävling on Apr 28, 2017 9:45:50 GMT -5
Given that murdering them in cold blood is something you have to decide to do, sounds like the fix is easy. Lose lots of rep for clicking on that button -- the one that says murder them in cold blood -- and not for clicking on the 'salvage' button.
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Post by fallen on Apr 28, 2017 9:49:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback! In both cases, Rep loss is variable and sometimes you will get some and sometimes you won't. Generally, destroying a ship is considered a major rep loss, downgraded salvage to a minor rep loss.
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Post by grävling on Apr 28, 2017 9:54:51 GMT -5
I would like a RFE for 'killing them in battle is not as bad for your rep as murdering them in cold blood' then. Maybe make a difference if you have an edict or not.
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athios
Templar
[ Star Traders 2 Supporter ]
Posts: 1,611
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Post by athios on Apr 28, 2017 12:18:05 GMT -5
Perhaps a reasonable question to ask is:
If someone else arrived on scene later to see all the wreckage, will they have any way of telling whether you accidentally shredded their hull, or did it after they surrendered?
Maybe there are residual memory chips floating around the wreckage that contains the Combat Log, maybe there's nothing.
Evidence: ship was blown up; no records found
Intention: unknown; assume the worst
Rep loss is sort of "retroactive" in a sense that your Rep takes it hit when someone figures out it was you who did it. Similar to how "stealthy" Missions still give you -Rep even though you carried out the action without anyone noticing — it will trace back to you somehow.
In both the Combat example and the Mission example, they only know the end result, and not the process/intention.
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Post by grävling on Apr 28, 2017 12:27:53 GMT -5
But that's the thing about war crimes. Eventually somebody on your crew will talk. You can only hide such behaviour for so long. And for me, who play military-types a whole lot, the difference between playing a virtuous and celebrated war hero and an evil and psychopathic war criminal matters a lot.
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athios
Templar
[ Star Traders 2 Supporter ]
Posts: 1,611
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Post by athios on Apr 28, 2017 12:44:40 GMT -5
Mmm... I sort of get what you mean.
Think of it this way. If a "Privateer" beats up your ship, some of your crew died in the process, and they loot all your TP4 cargo, the fact that they are doing it "legally" doesn't mean you're not going to be pissed. No, you are going to hate them.
Think of -Rep as an emotional reaction to aggression (whether legal/justified or not), and not as a value judgment on your character/actions/intentions.
Even though the Rep Titles include things like Galactic War Criminal, in truth it just means that you are a "Big Enemy of the Faction". How you got there doesn't matter at all. It's all political spin and public perception.
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Unfortunately, I am not sure that I see any difference in how your actions would be perceived by the Faction. Intent is great, but it doesn't always change the outcome.
