Questions about Attack and Defense bonuses

[elwoodps]

1. Shortly after I got the hang of the Ship Designer I started specializing my custom designed ships, optimizing their Captain Skills and Ship Materials for either guns or torps. For example my Fuel Tankers are optimized for torps, so I put zero points of Captain Skills and Ship Materials into Guns, and as many points as I can spare into Torpedoes. Until recently, I didn't even bother to equip these ships with any sort of gun. But then I read Cory Trese's reply in starfixer's thread about Close in defense, and it made me think it might be well worth mounting a cheap gun just to get the defense bonus.
   
   The Light Lance for example, gives a ship +2 Attack and +2 Defense, takes only 2 cp to build and costs just $6/turn to maintain. If this works like I'm guessing, it's by far the cheapest way to add an additional +2 Defense to a Carrier or Transport. And then I started wondering about that +2 Attack: Is it just +2 to the Light Lance's gun attack (as I'd previously been assuming), or does it add +2 to all of the ship's attacks? If that were true, then it could likewise make sense to put Mark 30 torps on a gun-optimized Cruiser, just to get the relatively cheap (8 cp and $14/turn) +3 Attack boost.
   
   So I guess the question the question here is:  Do the attack and defense bonuses from having guns and torps on the same ship stack?
   
   
2. In the description of "Planetary Invasion 3" training, what does the "+3 Gun Attack" bonus refer to? I assume it only applies to the "Planetary Invasion 3" action, but then what makes it a bonus to "gun attack" rather than a bonus to any attack, by whatever means (knives?, rocks?, water balloons?), that your invasion troops undertake?
   
   
3. In the description of the "Heavy Assault Brigade" Troop upgrade, what does the "+7 Gun Attack" bonus refer to? Does it only apply to Planetary Invasion attacks, or does it also apply to other 1 Range attacks?
   
   

Any light that you can shed on this topic will be most sincerely appreciated.

 

[Cory Trese]

1. No they do not.

2. Only to the action. That +3 Gun Attack is really +3 Planetary attack. An issue I intended to fix ASAP.

3. Right now it applies to Boarding and Invasion attacks.

[elwoodps]

Thanks Cory for the quick answers, and many thanks for the outstanding game.

[acecow]

Mar 8, 2015 20:04:58 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

1. No they do not.

2. Only to the action. That +3 Gun Attack is really +3 Planetary attack. An issue I intended to fix ASAP.

3. Right now it applies to Boarding and Invasion attacks.

Cory,
If the ATK and DEF of different weapons don't stack, how are they applied? For ATK is the value only applied when using that specific weapon? (IE Torp +2 bonus only when firing torps, Gun +3 bonus only when shooting guns?) Are they averaged? (+2 and +3 give +2.5 to both?) Or is the highest value chosen? (If +2 and +3, then +3 always?)

Additionally, how does DEF work? Sometimes, always, never? Per weapon/per attack? The biggest question arose after reading the Close-In Weaponry post, in one sense, CIW is not actually a weapon but takes up a weapon slot (I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure I remember the color being red) with only DEF. If it doesn't stack with the DEF on your other weapon, is it only worth it to take it if it's higher?

Sorry for the questions...but not really! Hehe, I'm on a quest to get these FAQ and minute details documented, so please help, I ask!

[tenbsmith]

acecow , welcome to the forums! I'm really enjoying your posts.

I'm rather sure that attack and defense stats for weapons apply to only that type of weapon: Torp bonuses apply to only torping, and gun bonuses apply only to gunning.

Regarding how defense works, there are two parts.
1) Determining if the attack hits. All relevant defense stats and bonuses add to a pool of strong and weak dice. A parallel pool of attack dice is also created. For each attack, both pools of dice are 'rolled' and the results determine whether or not that attack hits.
--After this, dice are rolled and bonuses applied to determine the amount of damage the attack does, also dice are rolled to check for a critical hit.
2) Damage Soak: Then dice are rolled to determine the amount of attack damage soaked up by armor and related bonuses.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking with regard to close-in-weaponry. But generally, all gun-related bonuses stack for guns only, and vice versa for torps. Regarding close-in-defense like the Phoenix Defense Pod and Balckrock System, these bonuses stack with other gun-related bonuses.

I believe there are some bonuses that apply to both types of attack, these are generally labelled 'all attacks' or something like that. For defense, the Ship Materials stat Evasion in the Ship Designer applies to defense for both guns and torps.

Hope this helps.

[elwoodps]

Feb 18, 2016 11:09:04 GMT -5 tenbsmith said:

....acecow

I believe there are some bonuses that apply to both attack and defense, these are generally labelled 'all attacks' or something like that. ....

Most of your post is way beyond me, but I think this one line isn't quite right. 

I'm pretty sure the bonuses that are labeled "Any Attack" (like the Military Crew upgrade's "+3 Any Attack" bonus), apply to all types of Attacks (Torps, Guns, Boarding, Invasion), but not to defense.

[acecow]

Feb 18, 2016 11:09:04 GMT -5 tenbsmith said:

acecow , welcome to the forums! I'm really enjoying your posts.

I'm rather sure that attack and defense stats for weapons apply to only that type of weapon: Torp bonuses apply to only torping, and gun bonuses apply only to gunning.

Regarding how defense works, there are two parts.
1) Determining if the attack hits. All relevant defense stats and bonuses add to a pool of strong and weak dice. A parallel pool of attack dice is also created. For each attack, both pools of dice are 'rolled' and the results determine whether or not that attack hits.
--After this, dice are rolled and bonuses applied to determine the amount of damage the attack does, also dice are rolled to check for a critical hit.
2) Damage Soak: Then dice are rolled to determine the amount of attack damage soaked up by armor and related bonuses.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking with regard to close-in-weaponry. But generally, all gun-related bonuses stack for guns only, and vice versa for torps. Regarding close-in-defense like the Phoenix Defense Pod and Blackrock System, these bonuses stack with other gun-related bonuses.

I believe there are some bonuses that apply to both attack and defense, these are generally labelled 'all attacks' or something like that. Also the Ship Materials stat Evasion in the Ship Designer applies to defense for both guns and torps.

Hope this helps.

I...meant Close-In Defense, not weaponry, heh, oops.

Okay, so CID's DEF bonus stacks with weapons. But two weapons' DEF don't stack...do you know when it get's applied then? Based on what you say and how Captain Skills/Material points work...I feel it would be based on range...and if you've only got one weapon then it just uses that bonus for both?

On dice rolling, we have an attack roll (against a defensive roll), a crit roll, a potential damage roll, then a armor/damage soak roll.
I get all of these except perhaps the last one...happen to know anything about it? Are you saying that if I roll a 20 for damage and shoot a Xeno with 10 armor, he won't necessarily take just 10 damage? Rather, each point of armor and defenses gives a...chance?.. to negate damage?
Interesting if that's the case.

Thanks for the info!

[tenbsmith]

I understand ST4X combat mechanics well based on play time, reading and posting here extensively, and familiarity with other TB games. ST4X, Heroes of Steel (HoS) and Templar Battleforce (TBF) share similar underlying mechanics, though the specifics vary. However, my understanding is imperfect. elwoodps you are clearly deeply versed in ST4X, so I'm a bit concerned some of my stuff didn't make sense to you, unless it's the stuff about dice pools, that hasn't been discussed directly for ST4X. For dice pools, I'm extrapolating based on HoS and TBF.

elwoodps pointed out an error of mine, thanks, I'm going to revise it to minimize transmission of misinformation.

When it comes to armor, I'm again extrapolating based upon HoS, I don't recall this being discussed explicitly on this board. I suspect that there is a 'soak' roll that determines how much damage the armor negates. The range of values possible is determined exclusively by armor statistics--other defense statistics do not apply.

Ack! I've done it again, intended a brief reply and written a encyclopedia entry.

[acecow]

Gotcha, so that actually makes armor doubly useful then, once for capping the max damage taken, twice for further negating/soaking actual rolls...or we can assume.

I've played some HoS, but also enough D&D, to fully understand dice pools...I suppose if the mechanics are roughly the same then that would make sense.

Sounds good! Shall be adding your very helpful encyclopedia entries to my "documentation" that I'll post hopefully soon.

Edit: Ahah! I have found proof! startradersrpg.proboards.com/post/104913/thread Cory mentions that the CID DEF bonus only applies to close range attacks (1 range, even torpedoes I'm assuming?)

[tenbsmith]

Wow acecow, you are really digging up some Franken-threads, but they have good info, Thanks. I've post a bit from that thread to the planetary invasion threads, so it won't be lost again.

Regarding armor, I believe it only helps through soak. I may circle back this weekend and post some questions I don't have time for now.

Regarding CID Defense bonus, I suspect they apply only to guns. I suspect defense for Torp attacks from one square away still uses only torp/hypersonic defense stats.

gotta go, under deadline at work.

[acecow]

Feb 19, 2016 13:22:19 GMT -5 tenbsmith said:

Wow acecow , you are really digging up some Franken-threads, but they have good info, Thanks. I've post a bit from that thread to the planetary invasion threads, so it won't be lost again.

Regarding armor, I believe it only helps through soak. I may circle back this weekend and post some questions I don't have time for now.

Regarding CID Defense bonus, I suspect they apply only to guns. I suspect defense for Torp attacks from one square away still uses only torp/hypersonic defense stats.

gotta go, under deadline at work.

Whooooooa, there's a specific Hypersonic defense? I need to keep my eyes open better. Must investigate this...

In regards to franken-threads (nice term btw), I was trying to grab information about Shielding for Radiation (mostly, how to determine radiation)...unfortunately I didn't quite get the answer I need, but I was able to pull that direct quote. I'll double check on the armor value, I'e got a bunch of threads open right now that I'm reading through. 

[tenbsmith]

Yes, there is a separate dice pool for Gun and Torp, for Attack and Defense. Like in this 2x2 table.

	Gun / Close-in	Torp / Hypersonic
Attack	Gun Attack Pool	Torp Attack Pool
Defense	Gun Defense Pool	Torp Defense Pool

Most bonuses apply to only one pool and some apply to two pools.

Information about Shielding and Radiation is scant. The T-Bros have acknowledged this and also indicated that radiation is not fully implemented in the game. I'll be interested to see what you dig up, but don't think you'll be able to get a full picture.

[acecow]

Feb 19, 2016 16:29:35 GMT -5 tenbsmith said:

Information about Shielding and Radiation is scant. The T-Bros have acknowledged this and also indicated that radiation is not fully implemented in the game. I'll be interested to see what you dig up, but don't think you'll be able to get a full picture.

Yeah...I've been combing some threads and putting a bunch of info aside to make a thread, but here's what I've picked up on Radiation and Shielding.


But wait, what's this Alpha and Gamma Shielding stuff?
startradersrpg.proboards.com/post/90717/thread

• Shielding soaks up Radiation damage, thus meaning it bypasses armor (conversely, regular Damage bypasses Shielding?)
  
• Radiation is present on Xeno colonies, along with their ships. Radiation damage is added to [any] attack, and is calculated into the final damage total that is shown.
• Alpha and Beta Radiation are primarily found on Mass Driver Ships (1 Range Gun Boats)
• Gamma, Neutron, and Theta Radiation are primarily found on Missile Ships (2+ Range)
• Each type of Xeno specializes in a different form of Radiation (startradersrpg.proboards.com/post/143903/thread)
  

I hope to at least make a...SAQ/RAQ (seldom/rarely) and perhaps a comprehensive link thread like fallen mentioned elsewhere. And since most of these I have to hunt for anyway, I get to put links in as well!


Edit: Found a post from Cory where he specifically says Mass Driver ships for CID. startradersrpg.proboards.com/post/90526/thread

[Cory Trese]

I wanted to clarify my above post about Defense.

Defense statistics from ALL weapons are added together, this includes CID.

However, very few weapon pairs give the same Defensive bonus type.

tenbsmith has it right with his table of the 4 different pools.

The "All Attack" does indeed add to everything.

CID adds to Gun Defense Pool

[acecow]

Feb 20, 2016 12:52:21 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

I wanted to clarify my above post about Defense.

Defense statistics from ALL weapons are added together, this includes CID.

However, very few weapon pairs give the same Defensive bonus type.

tenbsmith has it right with his table of the 4 different pools.

The "All Attack" does indeed add to everything.

CID adds to Gun Defense Pool

I see. As far as I could tell, CID was the only non-weapon weapon mod that gives DEF, thus would be the only pair, correct?

tenbsmith I wasn't able to find any Hypersonic Defense mods, plenty of attack ones though.

Can either of you answer which pools other modules' (Hyperion Reactor Core (Propulsion) +1 DEF, +2 EVA under Adv. Fleet Ops. 1 for instance) +DEF adds to? Would it be both gun/torp, I'm assuming? The same goes for any +ATK general mods too? (ex. Heavy Battle Prow (Prow) +4 Alpha DMG, +1 ATK under Orbital Materials 4) My assumption is anything that's generic +ATK/DEF and not associated with a weapon adds to both pools.