P2: philosophical discussion on Engineer's heat level

[En1gma]

fallen, but it still doesn't address what could (and likely will) be seen as a major issue with the game. For many units, Heat is just generated too quickly, and for everyone (especially the engineers) just doesn't dissipate at a rate that makes it something anyone wants to deal with.

This isn't an issue with the fundamentals, but the balance contained therein. I want Heat in the game, but I want it so be relegated to the real use of your suit, not to everyday actions that the Suit should have been built to deal with from its conception.

I haven't ever seen a game that penalizes movement itself, and while I realize the mechanics and reason behind it, I personally believe that it needs to be changed so that the player doesn't hate to move around, or decide between -moving- and -acting-.

[Cory Trese]

Maybe we played too much of all the Battletech/Mechwarrior games?

Part of the fun of these robot suit games is feeling like you are pushing the limit, in a heroic and self-destructive fashion, to accomplish feats of prowess on the battlefield.

I can see the fundamental changes you'd have to make the systems to accommodate a no-heat movement, but the changes might honestly not be fun.

The 14MP Captain ... hero ... warrior ... his armor glows red hot, the steam and sizzle of xeno blood

[En1gma]

I never played either of them. I understand what you're saying, but I guess I'll just have to get over it. Really not a fan of the (balance of the) current system, but hey- it's your game, I'm just a player.

I'm just foreseeing issues not with your hard core fan base, who as I said know exactly why things are the way they are. I'm thinking of the larger audience that you need to join up who are absolutely not going to want an otherwise unseen aspect of your game have such a profound limitation on the way the game is played.

I'll give it a rest, I resign my argument, and hope it at least makes some kind of difference 

[fallen]

Jun 15, 2015 16:14:46 GMT -5 En1gma said:

I'm just foreseeing issues not with your hard core fan base, who as I said know exactly why things are the way they are. I'm thinking of the larger audience that you need to talk into who are absolutely not going to want an otherwise unseen aspect of your game have such a profound limitation on the way the game is played.

I hope we can improve the tutorial, as I don't understand the "otherwise unseen aspect" of the game ... guess we didn't say the right things. Ah well, will work on that!

Or maybe its just Powerfield? No one has come on yet to really say with precision what they are doing with their Engineer to Overheat. What Talents are giving you trouble, causing you to burn up? Perhaps its Powerfield?

[En1gma]

Haven't used Powerfield. The mundane actions of TP capturing, Turret deployment, and motion are more than enough to cause the Engineer to OH, without using any buffs or attacks.

By unseen, I meant I've never seen a game that penalizes movement via a mechanic such as Heat.

[fallen]

En1gma - ah, ok "unseen" makes more sense. You haven't played many of the games that inspired BF, but that just means we need to explain it better.

Still lacking details on what is causing Engineers to OH. I can see that a prolonged siege on an enemy TP will do it, for sure (30 Heat per attack!). Maybe that could come down to 15?

Turrets are a big deal - and you get 2 of them. The 30 Heat penalty is high, but you're already limited by the 2 count, so maybe that could come down to 15?

Without further details, I would imagine that the siege of an enemy TP is where the real issue is at.

[En1gma]

I'll go through a step by step tonight, Andrew, to show you what I mean...

[contributor]

En1gma are you running your engineer with max willpower and the Heat Vent (+15 heat) gear? I have to say that running mine this way heat is becoming less and less of a problem as he levels up. Of course first impressions are a killer and if people feel like their new still wet-behind-the-ears engineer will never get better then that could be a problem. Also, a little over-heating never killed anyone (at least in my limited experience so far).

[bobc]

fallen reducing heat cost to 15 for deploying sentries and capturing TP sounds good. That is all my engineer does, and if the first TP takes 4-5 rounds then you are running pink hot for the rest of the level. And yes, that is with the +15 heat vent equiped.

[En1gma]

I build my engineers to be capable on the front line if need be, so I split points between willpower and other things. Again it seems wrong not to allow the Engineer any other path but full Willpower...

[fallen]

En1gma - are you Engineers cooking to death (not just taking damage, but actually dying)? I feel like there is pretty good variety allowed in Engineering build (we had 3 specifically in mind ...)

Really appreciate all the feedback, we'll keep looking at this one.

[En1gma]

Not to death, no, but it's to the point that I just let the turn count rack up while they stand there doing nothing. Every hitpoint matters to me should they get into combat.

[ntsheep]

Cory Trese you've finally said something that makes me think you're a complete idiot, there's no such thing as too much Battletech\Mechwarrior!!!!!

[johndramey]

I would be totally against removing the heat aspect from the game. I've not really had any serious problems with my Templars overheating too much and have generally been able to manage all but the engineer's heat level well. In fact, I've not overheated any class except for the engineer (every game) and soldiers (when they are engaged in constant defense).

The thing I would say is that Engineers seem to roast all the time. I think it might be worth looking at their heat generation since, as far as a remember, even just capturing generates 15 heat. If you get unlucky with your dice rolls you'll have to capture 3 or more times which will generate way more heat than most other classes.

That overheating has never really effected me too much and I haven't been putting points into willpower. I've actually been building melee powerhouse engineers which, if anything, run hotter. However, I can see how a player could get really frustrated seeing one Templar always in the pink even though that overheating isn't causing huge damage.

[fallen]

Jun 15, 2015 17:04:23 GMT -5 johndramey said:

That overheating has never really effected me too much and I haven't been putting points into willpower. I've actually been building melee powerhouse engineers which, if anything, run hotter. However, I can see how a player could get really frustrated seeing one Templar always in the pink even though that overheating isn't causing huge damage.

Glad you found this awesome build type With Cutter Fists, they can be real slammers.