P2: philosophical discussion on Engineer's heat level

[jknut]

Real life engineers may wonder why the Templar Engineer is always overheating in this game.

In my opinion, Engineers should be the ones running cool and taking away the heat from others.  Real life engineers make things and improve processes; therefore, the Templar Engineer probably tinkers with all his gear to make it really cool.

[bookworm21]

I'm gonna think of my engineers as more...

Mad-Scientist-Death-Ray-of-Doom kinda guys. You know, the sort that carry sooo much experimental gear that they can't help a little overheating now and again.

[fallen]

You can tinker with your Leviathan by installing Reactors that help manage heat better.

You can use Heat Sink to soak up heat from others.

[En1gma]

I do want to get back into this one...

IMO the engineer is gaining way too much heat. I find that by turn ~20ish the engineer has heated to the point that they are beginning to take damage, and to have them stand still for several turns to drop their heat to be useable is killing me slowly inside.

Can there be a few adjustments made to the heat gain system (in general, not just for engineers)? Some ideas I'd like to bounce off everyone.
-Cut Heat Gain in half for movement. These are supposed to be highly advanced killing machines. Why do they start boiling their pilots alive after moving a few dozen meters?
-I would rather see buffs and non-basic combat abilities use more Heat than movement or shooting. I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that Leviathan Suits are built to handle basic functions- where I group movement and basic weapon platform operations- without becoming a hazard to the pilot inside.
-If the Heat Gain from these (basic) functions will not be reduced, then the rate of cooldown should be increased. If I take the entire turn to gain the cooldown bonus, I'm expecting some SERIOUS returns on heat gain... I'm just not getting that return and it's bothering me somewhat.
-Perhaps (if it isn't already) the amount of MP left could be better used to burn off Heat?

I understand that the reactors inside the suits get very hot, and I understand that this is a vital function in this game. I just see new players getting VERY quickly frustrated when they begin having squad members overheating and either dying or being unable to use a critical talent when they need it the most. For us here on the forum, we are veteran (somewhat for myself...) players intimately accostomed to the lore and reasoning behind the heat. For anyone else (the ones we want to try and subsequently buy the game) this will be a mis-understood and loathed portion of this game- exactly why I think it needs a serious overhaul.

Thanks as always for hearing me out!

[Cory Trese]

Definitely not what I expected to read after all the other feedback we've collected on the Heat system. Crazy

Sounds like we've still got a long way to go on getting this right.

---

Do you think we should just eliminate the Heat system completely? It makes the game's rules unique, but maybe that isn't a good idea.

[ntsheep]

I've found so far that no matter what difficulty level I'm playing, putting all points into Willpower keeps me from taking a lot, if not any, heat damage at all. I do agree that they seem to heat up rather quickly, if I capture the first TP on any level, then next turn drop a Sentry Gun, then start moving towards the next TP to take over. I'm fully Red and going pink within the first 5 turns of the game. I never go down back to safe levels of heat, but don't lose my Engineer to a heatstroke either.


EDIT: Just saw your post Cory. No i don't think the Heat system needs to be removed, just tweeked a little maybe. I haven't had any problems yet with it that have made me really think it's unfair. I like the little twist in tactics you need to use because of it.

[bookworm21]

Now obviously I havent played the game and so am not the best qualified person to say anything about it but hey!

For what its worth, I was quite disappointed when the ammo limits of TA were binned for BF. Luckily the heat mechanism seemed to fill that gap of 'conservation of resources' and I would be sad to see such a game making feature removed.

Having said that, I dont know how well it plays in game, but I am really enjoying reading all about your exploits throughout the alpha

[Cory Trese]

ntsheep -- but it sounds like you ARE accepting it as part of the Engineer class, and doing things to compensate like raising Willpower and playing with your Engineer in "Full Red" heat. That's definitely what we originally intended players to do.

The Engineer was hopefully the gateway to managing your other hot Templars. We hoped the player would build skill with the strategies you outline while playing the Engineer. This would enable them to play the other, advanced Heat Classes (Bers, Nept, Hydr) without issue.

One of the core design choices we made early on with Talent Heat was that increasing the level of the Talent wouldn't increase the Heat. That Heat, unlike "Spirit Points" wouldn't scale dramatically with level. The Heat management approach you evolve for your squad doesn't necessarily have to change as your Soldier raises Burst Fire from 1 to 10.

---

Remaining MP is allocated to Heat dissipation. Greater than or equal to 6 remaining MP gives you a 300% bonus to your heat dissipation rate.

[Cory Trese]

Jun 15, 2015 14:14:53 GMT -5 bookworm21 said:

Now obviously I haven't played the game and so am not the best qualified person to say anything about it but hey!

For what its worth, I was quite disappointed when the ammo limits of TA were binned for BF. Luckily the heat mechanism seemed to fill that gap of 'conservation of resources' and I would be sad to see such a game making feature removed.

Having said that, I dont know how well it plays in game, but I am really enjoying reading all about your exploits throughout the alpha

The game is tries to compromise on the ammo limits. We did away with ammo limits on your basic attacks, and attached those to Heat and mobility instead of maximum use counters. Most Buff and the special attacks have ammo.

On longer levels, you can definitely start to feel your squad running out of supplies. However, you can find some threads on here today that are very strongly opposed to any mechanism of 'conservation of resources' ... the charge being that things that encourage conservation 'destroy fun.'

[bookworm21]

Cory Trese We all like different things I have literally just done the first three tutorial missions for the first time today; and I felt that the ammo limits really made the game. I feel that the heat mechanic is a better one overall though, as it ties together more aspects into a larger overarching effect that has to be managed.

[En1gma]

No way does it need to be removed, Cory Trese.

The biggest issue I have with it is that the rate at which it is gained GREATLY outpaces the rate at which it dissipates. Like I said, these are supposed to be the pinnacle of combat technology. I don't see why it gains a surplus of heat during -basic- operations. If anything I would expect it to break even. When you couple the cost of major activities (Turrets, TP Capping, Group Buffing, Self Buffing, Etc) with the crazy amount of heat generated by both movement and using Weapon Platforms, it becomes way too much to handle for these suits as it stands.

-Make Movement free. Exceptions- Scouts under the influence of their Null Field (which I'm sure is a huge source of Heat), or anything along these lines where the Suit is doing something that would cause enough duress to begin acquiring more heat than it can burn off.
-Double the amount of available heat. If not double the total heat, perhaps the amount of Heat available could be proportional to the individual Templar Class, and again to one of the stats on the Templar themself. An Engineer (or anyone) should be able to get his job done without cooking inside his Suit.
--Alternately have the different Suits increase the amount of total possible Heat as they go up in rank?
-Keep non-basic talents the same.
-Double the rate at which the suit burns heat. More so for turns where 0 MP is consumed.

What I want to see is when a Templar is operating under normal, mid-stress conditions (Light fire, light movement, light ability use), they fairly slowly acquire Heat. When a Templar is beginning to get in the shit (Using more powerful abilities, Combat Buffing, OW setup, etc), their heat will gain as their Suits' stress levels begin to rise. When a Templar is fully in the shit, using major power talents several times a turn, every turn, then their Heat will begin to get out of control, in accordance to how they are using their Suit. Once the fighting dies down, the suit will quickly go back to a manageable Heat Level, allowing the player to MOVE ON instead of waiting for the Suit to cool. This also allows the game to function how I envisioned it. A Templar fights like HELL on the frontline, then begins to take too much Heat, then they fall back to allow another Templar to take their place. While the fresh Templar starts fighting like HELL, the first Templar cools down (4-6 turns MAX), rejoining the fight around the same time the second Templar is beginning to overHeat.

This allows the player to focus on the task at hand FIRST, Heat SECOND. Let me reiterate- The Heat system has some FREAKING AMAZING potential in allowing a Templar to FIGHT LIKE HELL, then recover fast enough to be of use to the rest of the squad. As it is now, the fight starts to overHeat the Templar just when the fighting gets good, and the Heat becomes a complete hindrance (going back to saltin's Ball and Chain), instead of being something the player needs to use tactically.

[ntsheep]

Yes Cory, that's exactly what I meant. Playing the Engineer class by increasing Willpower helps with the heat. I like the way it is at the moment.

[Brutus Aurelius]

I honestly have not had any major problems with Heat so far. I like the system the way it is. Certain classes, such as my Engineers and Neptunes, run very hot, but +Max Heat gear and not having them go all out every turn makes it manageable.

[bobc]

I agree that the way heat is dealt with in the game can be tweaked for the better and I think En1gma has come up with some pretty sound suggestions. My favourites, and probably the more technically applicable, is to increase the suit's capability to withstand and dissipate heat build-up as they increase in rank.

Saying that you where 'in the pink' used to be a positive until I started running a BF squad at full tilt ☺

[fallen]

Would definitely recommend +Heat Max gear!