P2: philosophical discussion on Engineer's heat level

[En1gma]

(Post in progress)

Turn 1: Move then Capture Tact Point.

(Damn this imgur... I'll finish this is bit)

[slayernz]

Heat is an integral part of the game and should not be taken away at all. Certainly, there needs to be some balancing to make the heat increases and decreases more balanced given that again, the suits are pretty solid tech, and the designers would have made cooling one of the core components of design. You don't want soldiers cooked during a prolonged firefight or a dash across a battle field.


Because heat is here to stay, why not use it for another aspect. Heat attracts Xenos. Have a higher heat unit running around, and more Xenos are drawn to it. Having a Scout powered up with a Null thingy, but blasting Xenos like mad will certainly degrade from the effectiveness of the stealth tech.

Man, lots of brain farts from me. Sorry - I'll open a window.

[fallen]

Jun 15, 2015 17:55:52 GMT -5 En1gma said:

(Post in progress)

Turn 1: Move then Capture Tact Point.

(Damn this imgur... I'll finish this is bit)

I think a text description of the stuff you're doing is perfectly useful. We don't need a play-by-play.

"Move up and attack enemy TP" -- that would be enough

[En1gma]

It's turn two, to sum up. In those two turns, I moved less than 6 squares, captured the Tact Point, and dropped a Sentry Turret. I'm sitting at 83 heat. Might be a bug actually... Everything seems to be costing the Engineer double the heat...

[fallen]

En1gma - lol ... that is why we wanted a play-by-play. If you do that all in one turn, you absolutely should be feeling the Heat and considering taking some time to cool behind the Sentry Turret .

The number to Heat cost does seem strange ... you should have ... 15 + 30 + move Heat? Not 83.

[En1gma]

........ If this INSANE amount of Heat is meant to be a feature, then I don't know what else to say. Except that this could be (is) a serious turnoff, for myself and for tons of potential buyers.

If this generates this much heat, then the game absolutely MUST have a faster rate of cooldown, otherwise... Am I the only one that feels like this is a bad thing in terms of gameplay and enjoyability???

These are things that Engineers are -meant to do-... Capping a TP then locking down the area with a Sentry Turret yes- I agree that it should generate heat, and enough of it that you CAN'T do it turn after turn. I'm not arguing that point- I'm fine with it. What I'm arguing is that that Heat MUST burn off faster. I see no reason that the third turn I should start suffering damage should I begin moving to the next objective- which is exactly what will happen if I begin to move on...

To get his Heat down to the point where he can move without pink-lining would take upwards of 6-8 turns of doing absolutely nothing... Nothing fun about that whatsoever...

This Phase is supposed to be focusing on balance. As an Alpha tester, I feel obligated to really press this Heat issue, as it is literally the ONLY aspect of this game I feel is out of balance so far....

[fallen]

En1gma - thanks for the feedback! We'll keep working on this. If you use all your highest Heat generating Talents in a single turn, you'll definitely see some big heat there. I am now wondering if there is a bug based on your original report and the final "81" total.

As always, we'll keep improving.

[jknut]

I really like the idea of the heat system, but wish that a few changes could be made. Maybe I just want it to be easier, but I think others may agree...

Stealth Scout overheats so fast it makes me sad. It seems like a great idea but I overheat and can't use any talents.

The Engineer runs so hot, I'm pumping all the points into Willpower. I'd like to try other attributes but feel that Willpower is needed because of heat.

Possible suggestions:
1) Allow all talents to be used when overheated. Also, show heat damage on screen for longer. Right now, seems like one second.
2) Allow heat reduction bonus if 5AP (not MP) is left at end of turn. Not moving a Templar in a turn is boring.
3) Increase normal cooldown.
4) Reduce heat caused by talents.

I prefer Options 1 & 2.

[slayernz]

I've discovered that each MP generates 3 heat. If you're able to move 6 squares in one turn, that's 18 heat.
At the end of each round, you cool down 18 heat. That means if you're moving max distance, you're going to be heat-neutral. If you do any combat at all (or use any other talent), you're going to be on a net-heat increase.

So if you're running really hot, and are running away from a hoard of Xenos coming down the corridor, you're pretty much screwed. Stand and fight and you'll end up cooking. Run away and you can't lose the heat, and Xenos can move blimmin fast at times.


Thoughts ...
Maybe heat for movement could be staggered
Move 1-3 MP, = 1 heat per MP
Move 4-5 MP, = 2 heat per additional MP moved
Move 6+ MP = 3 heat per additional MP moved.

Also, 18 heat reduction per turn seems a bit low. I'd hope that within 3 turns, you'd cool back down to zero (doing nothing but stand there radiating heat. That means that you should be losing around 33 heat per turn (but at the very least 25 heat).

In Battletech, you could actually shut down in order to cool down quickly. It could be a nice "talent" to add to any knight where you "shut down" for a turn. Shutting down sheds, say, 50-60 heat. It leaves you completely vulnerable to attack though (no defense bonus, only armor. Any buffs added are not effective.)

[fallen]

Great feedback all around. We'll keep working on improving.

The next release will hopefully include clearly documented math for Heat Reclamation - thanks to slayernz for his detective work on most of the facts

[Cory Trese]

Templars offset between 18 and 6 Heat per turn, based on how many MP they have left.

Maybe we should double that rate on Easy -- that would give 36 Heat reduction and match the numbers slayernz calculated.

I turned it up to 36 and found that it eliminated Heat from the game. If that's the goal, I'd think it better perhaps to just remove it.

A heat system that doesn't make things exciting would probably be better off being left out.

Thanks for the feedback, we'll keep trying to incorporate everyone's posts, PMs, suggestions and e-mails!!!

[slayernz]

Noooooooooooo don't get rid of the heat ... battletech uses heat soo effectively - we just have to figure out how to do it in a similar way.

Maybe the armor gives you a heat reduction value (HR Class 2 = Heat Reduction of 20. HR Class 3 = Heat reduction of 30, etc).

Heat can be a factor in weapon design too. Instead of just having min/max + pene + range, you can have min/max + pene + range + heat.

You can have two weapons:
Weapon 1 (level 3)
Min 35
Max 60
Pene 14%
Range 5
Heat 4 per shot

Weapno 2 (level 3)
Min 45
Max 75
Pene 22%
Range 5
Heat 7 per shot.

It would give you the opportunity to make more distinctive gear selection based on your playing style. You like to be on top of your heat, then you do a little less damage. Alternatively, do much more damage, but run the risk of having cooked knight.

[Deleted]

Don't take heat out!

[contributor]

I just did a little experimenting with an engineer and here is what I saw.

Turn one: Move 5 squares (cost 15 heat) attack xeno TP and clear it of xeno infestation (15 heat) I end the turn at 30 heat.
Turn two: I forgot to check the engineer's heat at the beginning of the turn so I don't know exactly where I'm starting. Without moving I capture the TP which reduces my AP to 0 and MP to 1. I'm now sitting at 62 heat.

I wish I would have checked to see where I started because something is definitely jacking up the heat. The capture talent should cost 15 heat, but when it actually captures its costing me over 30 and probably closer to 40. Is it possible that it's costing me the reduction in MP too? It seems like in these situations if a talent is taking all of your MP you shouldn't be charged the heat for it as if you actually moved. Or it at least needs to be made clear where these hidden charges are coming from. If the talent says 15 heat, you expect to see your heat go up by 15 when you use it. If it's going up by more we should at least know why.

[contributor]

Actually just captured another one. Without making any movements in the turn. My heat went from 56 to 106 simply by capturing the TP. Is that how it's supposed to be?