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Post by xdesperado on Mar 18, 2016 13:32:55 GMT -5
So recently Tamilin got a makeover and her Torrent of Steel was significantly changed.
Hadn't used her in a group since Selen first came out so decided to put her in a party and see how she worked out. After using her through the first act of episode 1 thought a comparison of her ToS with Selen's Pinning Shot was in order.
Both talents can easily be at level 5 well before the Great Shaman fight and giving the max AoE.
ToS5 gives +9 Accuracy, +8 Dmg, -1 AP, -7 Dodge, -6 Resistance and costs 6SP per attack.
PS5 gives +9 Accuracy, -1 AP, -5 Parry, -6 Dodge and costs 13SP per attack.
So PS is more expensive SP wise with arguably less effect. PS does offer a greater range than ToS but that's offset by fact that you can only make 2-3 attacks with it per round while ToS can make up to 7 attacks per round. The higher number of possible attacks means ToS can not only affect more targets, but is also easier to help power with SP Drain gear meaning Tamilin can go longer between potions and/or resting.
Not a call to either Nerf ToS or boost PS just thought a side by side comparison would be interesting.
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 18, 2016 13:34:24 GMT -5
Good analysis. The range on PS is a lot more flexible than ToS, given the weapon choices you have for bow-based talents.
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Post by En1gma on Mar 18, 2016 13:38:53 GMT -5
Also, against range 7+ enemies, closing to ToS range could spell disaster. PS allows Selen to reach out from afar and remove AP. Also, removing Parry from an enemy is extremely effective, and can often mean the difference when using expensive empowered attacks. Both amazing talents, and both bring so much to the table in terms of build strategies
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 18, 2016 13:41:00 GMT -5
Yes, absolutely numerically a reduction of -5P/-6D is way, way better than -7D/-6R for generating hits
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Post by anrdaemon on Mar 18, 2016 13:41:37 GMT -5
Also higher number of attacks could mean that you are chugging potions to no end, if you did not get lucky with SP gear/not doing enough damage to recover.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 18, 2016 13:56:25 GMT -5
My thinking is probably colored to some extent by my play style. Because of investment in Burning Blades by Kjartan the extra reduction in Dodge and the -Resistance makes ToS a big boost for party. Getting to 10% SP Drain isn't much of stretch and as the Crit% mods start going up from talents/gears along with better weapons keeping ToS mostly self powered gets far easier. Yes I love the greater range for PS as it allows me to start reducing threats sooner, but good tactics can often make that rather less of a factor than one might think.
Both Talents are amazing and among my favorites in game, as I said, thought a side by side comparison would be interesting.
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Post by fallen on Mar 18, 2016 16:16:07 GMT -5
We've just released v4.2.17 which fixed the range bug in ToS, so that is one to watch. Stacking -Parry and -Dodge on PS really makes enemies easy to hit. I think to get a full analysis, you need to include a comparison of the weapon types available -- 1 AP throwing blades vs. 2 AP bows ... very different beasts I am not sure how I feel about 2 AP thrown weapons (I don't use them in my groups), but as xdesperado points out, you'd be kind of cutting against the best advantage that ToS has against PS.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 18, 2016 16:49:15 GMT -5
We've just released v4.2.17 which fixed the range bug in ToS, so that is one to watch. Stacking -Parry and -Dodge on PS really makes enemies easy to hit. I think to get a full analysis, you need to include a comparison of the weapon types available -- 1 AP throwing blades vs. 2 AP bows ... very different beasts I am not sure how I feel about 2 AP thrown weapons (I don't use them in my groups), but as xdesperado points out, you'd be kind of cutting against the best advantage that ToS has against PS. Bows tend to ramp up minimum damage faster which helps against higher armor targets, then again with Choking Ash you can keep 1AP Throwing Knives effective. A lot of it revolves around entire party structure, what talents each of them bring to the table and how they interact with each other. My current group is over cursing Dodge against most opponents currently which means any sort of ranged attacks have very high hit probability. They are a bit low on the parry curses with CA7 and Darting Steel 1 being the only things there. However I've found it's usually easier to hit in melee than ranged, plus while removing Dodge isn't as effective for melee attacks it does still have an impact on them landing while parry doesn't affect ranged at all. Ensuring that Kjartan can land his spells against targets with little to no armor and resistance means he can be effective even with Firebolt 1+BB much longer and his BB will be more effective for rest of party particularly Tamilin using ToS and Kincaid with Darting Steel. As always there are tradeoffs that have to be made with any group build and finding the best synergy of Heroes and Talents is what makes HoS so much fun. By the way fallen is there any chance of Kincaid getting a non empowered throwing knife talent like Tamilin has? Tamilin gets both a basic TK and Bow attack so not sure how giving Kincaid a basic TK attack would unbalance things.
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Post by fallen on Mar 18, 2016 17:14:40 GMT -5
Vraes loves it after a Firestorm -- all those extra crunchy targets
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Post by fallen on Mar 18, 2016 17:15:53 GMT -5
xdesperado - sounds like a fun group to play! The double throwing knife action must be fun. It isn't something we can retroactively add to Kincaid at this point.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 18, 2016 17:22:13 GMT -5
xdesperado - sounds like a fun group to play! The double throwing knife action must be fun. It isn't something we can retroactively add to Kincaid at this point. To bad the non empowered attacks are great ways to help keep SP up with lower levels of SP Drain gear. Especially after the initial set of cursing attacks.
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Post by Rashar on Mar 19, 2016 3:44:23 GMT -5
Yeap Kjartan with CA and BB, Tam with DI and ToS and the fun never ends. If you have Vraes in your party aswell and he picks up BR then suddenly 2 people in your party are crit machines.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 25, 2016 14:45:41 GMT -5
Back to using my girl Selen and must say while the extra range she gets with PS is very nice, compared to the raw damage output Tam can get with ToS it seems a bit lacking. Also noticed that at higher levels 8+ while Selen gets a slightly larger AoE she remains with only -1AP while ToS goes to a -2AP. Don't know about others but personally feel that -2AP is a much bigger boost than the increase in AoE. Know many will likely hate me for this but really feel even with the fixed range of ToS that it's still pretty overpowered, or else PS needs to get some minor adjustments i.e. +dmg for attacks and/or going to -2AP at high levels.
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ToS vs PS
Mar 25, 2016 14:54:18 GMT -5
via mobile
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Post by Kanly on Mar 25, 2016 14:54:18 GMT -5
I like PS as it is. A 2ap remover at that range that does damage would be op IMO. If you made it 2ap you would have to boost the SP cost substantially. If there is any change to PS I would argue for adding a bit of damage at higher levels.
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Post by En1gma on Mar 25, 2016 14:59:29 GMT -5
The trade off with PS is its range. To be able to strip that AP off of a summoner from 7 range is unmatched by ToD.
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