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Post by fallen on Mar 25, 2016 15:42:56 GMT -5
The larger AoE template also cannot be overlooked. That is a huge benefit on top of the range. Especially in the stealth round when enemies tend to be clustered.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 25, 2016 17:03:14 GMT -5
The larger AoE template also cannot be overlooked. That is a huge benefit on top of the range. Especially in the stealth round when enemies tend to be clustered. Not to quibble but seriously at maximum you can hit two additional targets with PS at rank 8+, I guess the AoE at that point will allow for a bit looser cluster of enemies being hit but not sure it's worth the 3 extra talent points to get there. Please don't get me wrong I love PS as is, just feel when compared to ToS the other ranged -AP attack it seems a bit underwhelming. Again most likely ToS probably needs a bit more of a minor nerf than PS needs improved. -AP from start, +Dmg, -dodge, -Resistance and AoE just makes ToS rather OP as an attack especially with low SP cost and ability to use 1AP weapons. Perhaps a small raise in SP cost is what ToS needs to help limit it, I don't know.
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matrim
Star Hero
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Post by matrim on Mar 25, 2016 17:34:35 GMT -5
ToS is fine, the range limit and the fact that she cannot tank anywhere near as reliably as Selen balances them out. Not every talent needs to be comparable, just the characters overall.
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phaze
Exemplar
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Post by phaze on Mar 25, 2016 18:24:14 GMT -5
The larger AoE template also cannot be overlooked. That is a huge benefit on top of the range. Especially in the stealth round when enemies tend to be clustered. Not to quibble but seriously at maximum you can hit two additional targets with PS at rank 8+, I guess the AoE at that point will allow for a bit looser cluster of enemies being hit but not sure it's worth the 3 extra talent points to get there. Please don't get me wrong I love PS as is, just feel when compared to ToS the other ranged -AP attack it seems a bit underwhelming. Again most likely ToS probably needs a bit more of a minor nerf than PS needs improved. -AP from start, +Dmg, -dodge, -Resistance and AoE just makes ToS rather OP as an attack especially with low SP cost and ability to use 1AP weapons. Perhaps a small raise in SP cost is what ToS needs to help limit it, I don't know. As a mainstay user of PS at 8+, this statement drastically undersells the impact the extra AoE has. Given how the vectors are applied, it opens the cone of attack to cover enemies that have gaps between them, allowing PS to effectively cover much of the battlefield. As enemies frequently do not line up in solid ranks like they do in Ep 1, the extra area of coverage allows PS to impact added enemies on each side of the vector, hitting something like up to an extra four enemies with each attack. If you've ever had a summoner get out of hand, watching entire rooms melt with PS is a sight to behold, similar to LS or RO. I have tested ToS and like it. It is powerful, but I ultimately went back to PS as the range and extra AoE provides vastly more flexibility that suits my tastes.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 25, 2016 19:07:45 GMT -5
phaze I have returned to Selen and PS as well because of the added range, mainly due to using Fyona in my current group instead of Kyera. As I have said previously really enjoy PS and that added range. This discussion is mainly because while ToS has a much more limited range it seemed very OP within it's envelope. Remember that PS and ToS are both a sort of off talent for the two. While PS adds great versatility to Selen I don't see many people talking about making it the main focus of their builds, but more as rounding out her arsenal. Tamilin on other hand, and this might just be because of the relative newness of ToS in its current form is seeing builds focused around it and her other Bow based talents being largely ignored in a number of discussions. Tamilin has undergone a transformation from long range sniper to deadly medium/close range engine of destruction with a single changed talent. It at least for me shifted her entire character profile in a fundamental way that I'd look at building her. Previously it was keep her away from any close proximity to enemies or she'd die, her ability to deal damage up close being nearly as bad as Kjartan's and defense unreliable. While her defense can still be unreliable, the massive improvement in close combat capability makes that largely irrelevant especially with a good tank anchoring the main frontline of battle. She needed a boost no question but...
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Post by En1gma on Mar 25, 2016 19:26:28 GMT -5
xdesperado-- PS is the cornerstone of every single Selen build I ever use. Her place in every team I play is a switch hitter, who rushes straight to PS 5 then works on defenses.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 25, 2016 19:36:54 GMT -5
xdesperado-- PS is the cornerstone of every single Selen build I ever use. Her place in every team I play is a switch hitter, who rushes straight to PS 5 then works on defenses. I do the same most times, but we also see a number of successful builds for her that have her dual wielding daggers and never touching PS. That brings up another point, a single Talent point invested in PS is of rather limited value, PS4 or 5 when you've got both -AP and AoE is when it starts showing real usefulness. ToS on the other hand gives that -AP immediately and even with 1AP TKs can have a real impact for much of game without any further Talent points invested. Obviously there are a huge number of factors that play into both talents, guess I'm mainly playing devils advocate here and trying to get some extra love for my girl Selen.
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matrim
Star Hero
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Post by matrim on Mar 25, 2016 19:49:32 GMT -5
Where Selen needs love is her steel and shadow talent, currently unusable. PS is strong, as is ToS, they need to be for reasonable progression.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 25, 2016 20:07:07 GMT -5
Where Selen needs love is her steel and shadow talent, currently unusable. PS is strong, as is ToS, they need to be for reasonable progression. Agreed her SoS needs a makeover of some sort, at least as her level 18 talent. That however is another topic and has been under discussion/review almost since she first appeared.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 25, 2016 22:35:58 GMT -5
Where Selen needs love is her steel and shadow talent, currently unusable. PS is strong, as is ToS, they need to be for reasonable progression. Agreed her SoS needs a makeover of some sort, at least as her level 18 talent. That however is another topic and has been under discussion/review almost since she first appeared. Just for clarity, SoS =Storm of Steel, Kincaid's level 18 talent. SaS =Steel and Shadow, Selen's lvl 18. SaS is the final talent on tap to get a significant reworking. There may be other minor changes, but SaS should be the last major talent change I think.
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 25, 2016 23:52:26 GMT -5
xdesperado-- PS is the cornerstone of every single Selen build I ever use. Her place in every team I play is a switch hitter, who rushes straight to PS 5 then works on defenses. I can never bring myself to build PS Selen except for balance testing. I've beaten the E3 with her holding the starting bow ... LOL
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 26, 2016 0:20:49 GMT -5
xdesperado-- PS is the cornerstone of every single Selen build I ever use. Her place in every team I play is a switch hitter, who rushes straight to PS 5 then works on defenses. I can never bring myself to build PS Selen except for balance testing. I've beaten the E3 with her holding the starting bow ... LOL See now I've got a Dev who's helping make my point! Ok maybe not lol but think everyone can admit that ToS was/is a serious game changer for Tamilin. Just hope when the day comes that Steel and Shadow gets it's makeover that it will be equally awesome. Of course this is the TB's we're talking about so of course it will be awesome!
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 26, 2016 1:02:44 GMT -5
I can never bring myself to build PS Selen except for balance testing. I've beaten the E3 with her holding the starting bow ... LOL See now I've got a Dev who's helping make my point! Ok maybe not lol but think everyone can admit that ToS was/is a serious game changer for Tamilin. Just hope when the day comes that Steel and Shadow gets it's makeover that it will be equally awesome. Of course this is the TB's we're talking about so of course it will be awesome! Oh, I NEVER use ToS the range is too low for the difficulty I play on.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 26, 2016 1:47:50 GMT -5
Cory TreseYou might try giving it even a single point, especially early game/at start. Think it might convince you how great it is. Possibly just me but think AP removal at any range is one of the most powerful and useful effects in game. Add in all the other stuff and fact you can use it for 1AP and it's killer, even if all you use it for is to burn your last AP after firing your bow and any movement actions.
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Post by fallen on Mar 26, 2016 10:07:07 GMT -5
We definitely will not be improving Pinning Shot. I can say that for sure. It has already had a whole week dedicated to how it is the best Talent in the game lol.
Still grealy enjoying my Tamilin Ranged Onslaught builds. I am playing about 3:1 ratio of bow to throwing knife atm. For some builds, ToS works ok, but I find its range very limited. Simply put, I like to get my -AP from somewhere reliable (i.e. not Tamilin). It is extremely dangerous to have your -AP reliant on a 3 range attack.
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