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Post by xdesperado on Feb 5, 2017 8:36:24 GMT -5
Just started a new game on a newly created map and have encountered a rather annoying thing.
All the planets in close proximity to my start point are Mining/Farming communities of roughly same level and all of them are selling the same things on the exchange and looking for the same goods to buy. Obviously there is zero ability to trade since none of them want more of what they are already selling. Been to 5 planets and 8 with 9 settled zones and all have basically the same available for sale goods and are wanting to buy the same stuff.
Put this in bugs because this isn't the first map and quadrant I've played on that has had the same issue. Instead this seems to be more the norm rather than the exception for the map generator.
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Post by Cory Trese on Feb 5, 2017 13:04:40 GMT -5
Yes, the map system concentrates like economies in trade quadrants.
I am very happy to discuss the map generator's internals.
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Post by Cory Trese on Feb 5, 2017 16:02:41 GMT -5
So right now the rule is that the default economy type is applied to approx 40% of the primary zones in the quadrant.
We are working on making the zones more and more unique as we add additional services and make the zone attributes more reactive to planetary type and attribute values.
Right now I'm working on code that will mutate zone attributes based on Faction, which should help with diversity as well, but maybe not the issue mentioned in the OP.
I've tried different percentages, anything over 50% makes boring quadrants, but anything under 30% seems to make things really random feeling.
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Post by xdesperado on Feb 5, 2017 18:02:40 GMT -5
So right now the rule is that the default economy type is applied to approx 40% of the primary zones in the quadrant. We are working on making the zones more and more unique as we add additional services and make the zone attributes more reactive to planetary type and attribute values. Right now I'm working on code that will mutate zone attributes based on Faction, which should help with diversity as well, but maybe not the issue mentioned in the OP. I've tried different percentages, anything over 50% makes boring quadrants, but anything under 30% seems to make things really random feeling. So current map majority of starting quadrant explored to date is all mining and farming offering same goods for sale and requesting the same things which are unavailable. Quadrant 1 jump away also controlled by my faction has exact same, wasn't until I jumped 3 quadrants that I found some non mining/farming planets where I could buy the Vudka, Pesticides and other low end goods the home planets needed. Obviously a break down is occurring someplace as realistically if you have 3-4 planets in close proximity all producing basic raw materials at least 1 planet will turn to an industrial manufacturing base that converts that surplus of raw materials into desired goods for trade back. Trying to cross 3 quadrants and make a half dozen jumps on challenging difficulty means low end trade goods are not feasible sources of income. Even without any random encounters, hostile or otherwise, basic ship operation costs makes such trading a losing proposition. Now granted I haven't yet fully explored my starting quadrant or its neighboring quadrants but my understanding was that planets hidden by the fog would as a general rule be less developed, wilderness planets so less likely to have good trading opportunities. |
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Post by Officer Genious on Feb 5, 2017 18:12:04 GMT -5
So right now the rule is that the default economy type is applied to approx 40% of the primary zones in the quadrant. We are working on making the zones more and more unique as we add additional services and make the zone attributes more reactive to planetary type and attribute values. Right now I'm working on code that will mutate zone attributes based on Faction, which should help with diversity as well, but maybe not the issue mentioned in the OP. I've tried different percentages, anything over 50% makes boring quadrants, but anything under 30% seems to make things really random feeling. So current map majority of starting quadrant explored to date is all mining and farming offering same goods for sale and requesting the same things which are unavailable. Quadrant 1 jump away also controlled by my faction has exact same, wasn't until I jumped 3 quadrants that I found some non mining/farming planets where I could buy the Vudka, Pesticides and other low end goods the home planets needed. Obviously a break down is occurring someplace as realistically if you have 3-4 planets in close proximity all producing basic raw materials at least 1 planet will turn to an industrial manufacturing base that converts that surplus of raw materials into desired goods for trade back. Trying to cross 3 quadrants and make a half dozen jumps on challenging difficulty means low end trade goods are not feasible sources of income. Even without any random encounters, hostile or otherwise, basic ship operation costs makes such trading a losing proposition. Now granted I haven't yet fully explored my starting quadrant or its neighboring quadrants but my understanding was that planets hidden by the fog would as a general rule be less developed, wilderness planets so less likely to have good trading opportunities. I agree. I switched off merchantilism because of this reason. I could never find any relatively near by quads with vudka and high end goods, they were all 3-4 jumps away. |
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Post by Cory Trese on Feb 5, 2017 18:51:09 GMT -5
So right now the rule is that the default economy type is applied to approx 40% of the primary zones in the quadrant. We are working on making the zones more and more unique as we add additional services and make the zone attributes more reactive to planetary type and attribute values. Right now I'm working on code that will mutate zone attributes based on Faction, which should help with diversity as well, but maybe not the issue mentioned in the OP. I've tried different percentages, anything over 50% makes boring quadrants, but anything under 30% seems to make things really random feeling. So current map majority of starting quadrant explored to date is all mining and farming offering same goods for sale and requesting the same things which are unavailable. Quadrant 1 jump away also controlled by my faction has exact same, wasn't until I jumped 3 quadrants that I found some non mining/farming planets where I could buy the Vudka, Pesticides and other low end goods the home planets needed. Obviously a break down is occurring someplace as realistically if you have 3-4 planets in close proximity all producing basic raw materials at least 1 planet will turn to an industrial manufacturing base that converts that surplus of raw materials into desired goods for trade back. Trying to cross 3 quadrants and make a half dozen jumps on challenging difficulty means low end trade goods are not feasible sources of income. Even without any random encounters, hostile or otherwise, basic ship operation costs makes such trading a losing proposition. Now granted I haven't yet fully explored my starting quadrant or its neighboring quadrants but my understanding was that planets hidden by the fog would as a general rule be less developed, wilderness planets so less likely to have good trading opportunities. Thanks for the feedback. Since the game can generate so many different map results, we have to look at it statistically and from perspective of the average result. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the map generator. It is uncommon, at least mathematically rare. If you want to send me the map file for hand analysis and review, go ahead and email me. i'm happy to take a look. |
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Post by Cory Trese on Feb 5, 2017 18:52:10 GMT -5
So current map majority of starting quadrant explored to date is all mining and farming offering same goods for sale and requesting the same things which are unavailable. Quadrant 1 jump away also controlled by my faction has exact same, wasn't until I jumped 3 quadrants that I found some non mining/farming planets where I could buy the Vudka, Pesticides and other low end goods the home planets needed. Obviously a break down is occurring someplace as realistically if you have 3-4 planets in close proximity all producing basic raw materials at least 1 planet will turn to an industrial manufacturing base that converts that surplus of raw materials into desired goods for trade back. Trying to cross 3 quadrants and make a half dozen jumps on challenging difficulty means low end trade goods are not feasible sources of income. Even without any random encounters, hostile or otherwise, basic ship operation costs makes such trading a losing proposition. Now granted I haven't yet fully explored my starting quadrant or its neighboring quadrants but my understanding was that planets hidden by the fog would as a general rule be less developed, wilderness planets so less likely to have good trading opportunities. I agree. I switched off merchantilism because of this reason. I could never find any relatively near by quads with vudka and high end goods, they were all 3-4 jumps away. Sorry to hear you have given up on trading. Maybe try a different map? According to the statistics, trading is most popular way for Alpha Phase 1 players to make money. More than 75% of the players who are currently playing are focused on trades. Hopefully you're able to get back to it eventually. Thanks for playing! |
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Post by Officer Genious on Feb 5, 2017 19:09:37 GMT -5
I may give it another go later now that I finally understand the character creation system (I was unaware that I could even move the categories at all for a while). Thanks Cory!
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Post by johndramey on Feb 5, 2017 19:35:36 GMT -5
I've actually had pretty decent success with trading, although I did notice that Quadrants tended to primarily be one kind of economy.
One question though, is the system set up now to discourage identical economies being assigned to adjacent Quadrants? It might be worth coding in a system that makes two identical economies, let's say Agricultural, from being assigned to adjacent Quadrants just so the player is less likely to run into a situation where there are no easy trades in reach.
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Post by Cory Trese on Feb 5, 2017 19:40:39 GMT -5
I've actually had pretty decent success with trading, although I did notice that Quadrants tended to primarily be one kind of economy. One question though, is the system set up now to discourage identical economies being assigned to adjacent Quadrants? It might be worth coding in a system that makes two identical economies, let's say Agricultural, from being assigned to adjacent Quadrants just so the player is less likely to run into a situation where there are no easy trades in reach. Yes, there is such a system in place. It can only do so much, sometimes economies are adjacent to multiple adjacent to other multiple systems. |
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Post by johndramey on Feb 5, 2017 19:42:59 GMT -5
Well in that case I have no problems. I think I've only ever run into two Quadrants that were predominately the same economy, and even then it wasn't such a huge issue because they were Ag economies and I had some nice population planets within easy reach. Medicine, clothes, and food make such nice trade goods. They are pretty much sellable for a profit on any planet. And crop harvesters are total money machines when you sell 'em to Ag planets.
I know it's still early days and there is still a lot of stuff we aren't seeing, but I absolutely love the trading system. Props to you and Andrew, ST2 is going to be huge.
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Post by Cory Trese on Feb 5, 2017 19:44:34 GMT -5
Yeah -- the Trade Permit trade goods are absolutely always worth jumping to sell. Some of them are worth jumping 3+ jumps you'll make that much money.
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Post by grävling on Feb 5, 2017 20:21:04 GMT -5
Maybe when we go to the exchange we need to see our trade permit goods sorted separately from the basic stuff. And the stuff we cqnnot buy greyed out with the note .... 'needs higher trade permit'. When everything is new to us, nothing screams 'rarest and thus most profitable merch here!'.
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Post by johndramey on Feb 5, 2017 20:26:04 GMT -5
I could get behind that. Right now all we see is the Legality category, but it's not immediately clear that legality is tied to trade permits. Maybe the player should be able to see goods that are one legality level above what (s)he is able to trade at, but listed in red (or otherwise set apart) and not purchasable?
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Post by Cory Trese on Feb 5, 2017 21:54:56 GMT -5
Legality is not related to Trade Permits  |
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