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Post by varentai on Jun 11, 2018 9:37:47 GMT -5
OK, so I noticed something in one of my re-playthroughs and it raised a question:
In the Excavation site, Fyona comments that the temple is really easy to open because it just needs the prayer to the Thirteen. I think it's Fyona as well who says that Lazzon would not have thought of this because he wasn't raised in religion and wouldn't know that prayer.
But Lazzon is Rabiel, so of COURSE he knows that prayer. Why do all that crazy magic rune stuff if he could just speak that prayer and enter? That sorta jumped out at me this time, and I was curious as to the plot explanation for the REAL reason Lazzon/Rabiel couldn't get through.
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Post by fallen on Jun 11, 2018 10:18:18 GMT -5
varentai - When Fyona is thinking of Lazzon as a 30-ish year old man, he would not have been raised in the religion because worship of the 13 ended 71 years ago. Considering who Lazzon really is, he was not raised in the religion -- he was a god of the religion. He would not know the prayers the mortals say to the entire pantheon.
Both interpretations are purposeful.
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Post by varentai on Jun 11, 2018 11:45:13 GMT -5
Interesting! So the gods in this world do not have a decent measure of omnipresence unless they tap into what's-her-name goddess's Sight?
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Post by fallen on Jun 11, 2018 12:38:37 GMT -5
Interesting! So the gods in this world do not have a decent measure of omnipresence unless they tap into what's-her-name goddess's Sight? More that Rabiel is unlikely to have ever attended religious education that a mortal child would have in the temples. He's a god, with big tricky things to plan, like murdering his father. Why would he haunt a school house or a temple and memorize silly mortal rhymes? It seems out of character  |
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Post by varentai on Jun 11, 2018 14:20:04 GMT -5
Ooo, ok, now you have my nerdy worldbuilding self asking questions.  And, yeah - attending those kinds of classes is totally out of character for him. So the gods of Steel have to actually be aware of and physically attend something like this in order to have that knowledge? They can't just reach into the past to find out something's origins or, even better, just *know* it not because they observed it but because they are gods and simply have access to that level of knowledge and power? Or possibly they had that kind of power before, but the Shattering destroyed their ability to tap into it and only left in their memories what they actually experienced instead? All except for the Seer goddess whose name I still cannot recall, but she has to have a mortal or someone else with Sight to look in her pools for her? EDIT: I have another bunch of questions! So that prayer was man made and not given by the gods? How aware of their followers' prayers were the Thirteen before the Shattering? It seems that was greatly reduced after the Shattering, if not removed altogether, but if Rabiel didn't know that prayer, did the rest of them know it or were they equally oblivious? Meaning that if the prayer was man made, even if sincerely spoken, the gods were not aware/did not hear them? Were there specific rituals that needed to followed to get the ears of the gods? Outside of those, the gods could hear or know nothing about the mortals, perhaps excepting Death herself? Inquiring minds want to know! Your world is very cool, and I am very intrigued. |
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Post by fallen on Jun 11, 2018 15:23:06 GMT -5
varentai - how far into the story are you?
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Post by varentai on Jun 11, 2018 17:18:30 GMT -5
As far as you have developed! Every time my Android tells me that there are updates, I excitedly check to see if the next Heroes update is live. |
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Post by fallen on Jun 11, 2018 18:17:46 GMT -5
As far as you have developed! Every time my Android tells me that there are updates, I excitedly check to see if the next Heroes update is live. Ok, then you are aware of the actual position of the 13 children and the all-father. They are not the first Gods, they are the current powerful beings that have claimed "god" status by slaying their more powerful ancestors. And, from what has been said, those ancestors probably claimed their "god" status by slaying those that created them. So, with that in mind, its easy to see that the 13 do not have omnipresence. They have no access to some well of memories of insight to know all things. Ellista, through Irulik's eye certainly has foresight that the others do not. Prayers are made up by mortals, don't you think? The priests and acolytes write them and teach them, and some of the gods (Hagathrun, Cortias, Myshana, etc) pay great deal of attention to their worshippers. Rabiel the trickster had different kinds of followers, very likely never in a temple setting. Small idols and people leaving his offerings for good luck or bad luck upon an enemy. He was included in the pantheon of the 13 in the temples, but was he present there often? Unlikely. They are very powerful beings and when the dark 4 destroyed the All-Father they lost even more of their power, but most of them did not lose knowledge or memories. For some of them, their sanity clearly cracked at this point, and someone like the Crone lost their memory for many, many years. |
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Post by varentai on Jun 11, 2018 18:58:43 GMT -5
That makes tons of sense. Taking the mantle of godhood does not create omnipresence or omnipotence intrinsically, because Selen is now Death, but she is going to grow into her own power over time without that set of intrinsic omnis.
So if Rabiel had chosen to, he could have paid attention to the prayers of the faithful, but that wasn't his deal, so he doesn't have any of that knowledge.
I remember years ago reading the Forgotten Realms series about the gods being cast down and Midnight the mage taking Mystra the goddess of magic's place, Cyric the thief taking over the portfolios of Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal. They had some serious omni-type powers, balanced by the spheres of the other gods, so none of them could overrun the rest. Steel is different - not gods, per se, more like mortals who take a portfolio of power without the omnis you see in gods in other fantasy realms.
I like, cool stuff! How long has this cycle been going on? Is there a beginning or is it just an eternal cycle that will repeat over and over again?
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Post by fallen on Jun 11, 2018 19:46:47 GMT -5
I like, cool stuff! How long has this cycle been going on? Is there a beginning or is it just an eternal cycle that will repeat over and over again? This is something the heroes don't know, nor do they know if the cycle can keep repeating or will change in the future. Each successive generation has clearly been weaker than the last. Had the All-Father not been destroyed, and that destruction wrought upon his 13 Children in turn, then the Harbingers (your heroes) would never have been able to stand up to Cortias or any of the other gods. And you can see a cycle in the story of a next generation being created as well ... I won't mention the names. |
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matrim
Star Hero
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Post by matrim on Jun 11, 2018 19:49:04 GMT -5
Cataclysm was R.A Salvatore’s best work in my opinion. Certainly there are tones of it in this story, but any story involving gods interacting with mortals almost necessitates this kind of backdrop. Some other fiction along the same lines are Prophecy of the Rose series by Weiss and Hickman (though it has been over 20 years since I have read that and I was only 12 at the time so it might not have aged well) and a new series which I am loving called the Stormlight Archive.
I think my favourite arc in Steel has been Vurnak. I love how it was handled and it was the first time I felt that I was truely impacting the world.
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Post by varentai on Jun 11, 2018 19:54:49 GMT -5
Oooo, Stormlight Archive! Anything by Brandon Sanderson is fantastic. I love how many of his series stand alone for readers but connect to a larger narrative in the Cosmere. Especially loved how two characters from Warbreaker showed up in Stormlight Archive 2, one more subtle and one right in your face.
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Post by anrdaemon on Jun 12, 2018 18:29:13 GMT -5
I think "knowing prayers" vs. "hearing prayers" is an interesting question.
It is said that "gods always hear our prayers". But do they hear them literally?
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Post by crimsonking on Jun 13, 2018 1:18:06 GMT -5
Prayers are made up by mortals, don't you think? According to jews, christians and muslims, some if not all of them, at least those written in the holy books, are made up by God, and while the religion of Steel obviously works different and the Thirteen are far from omnipotent or omnipresent, it is sufficingly reasonable to think prayers there are created the same way as in the real world until one learns they are not.
That said, I also easily accepted that Rabiels way of thought would ignore the option that a simple prayer could open the temple, simply because he himself would have secured it with some extremely complicated or well hidden lock.
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Post by anrdaemon on Jun 13, 2018 3:02:16 GMT -5
On a related note… No one was praying for it not to happen… |
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