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Post by resistor on Jul 16, 2018 13:41:04 GMT -5
I have an idea that might better capture the feeling of "WWII submarines/battleships in space" in ship combat.
What if we couldn't always see what talents the enemy is firing? If an enemy buffs itself, the tooltip would just say something like "2 hidden effects". There could be sensor Talents that reveal what Talents/buffs the other ship is using. Some ship Talents might be excepted from this rule, and always reveal their effect.
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Post by drspendlove on Jul 16, 2018 14:46:17 GMT -5
I wouldn't care for that. If the foe is using evasive maneuvers, it should be visible. If they were barking orders, then no. Either they'd need to differentiate between hidden and exposed talents/buffs or drop the idea.  |
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Post by resistor on Jul 16, 2018 16:03:41 GMT -5
I wouldn't care for that. If the foe is using evasive maneuvers, it should be visible. If they were barking orders, then no. Either they'd need to differentiate between hidden and exposed talents/buffs or drop the idea. Visibility in naval warfare seems to be poorer in ST than most other sci-fi settings, so I think talents like Evasive Maneuvers being hidden could be excusable. Maybe some talents like Evasive Maneuvers could be hidden for only the first one or two turns they are active? |
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Post by drspendlove on Jul 16, 2018 17:14:07 GMT -5
Ok, I'll buy that. I guess it *could* be added and would certainly shake up the meta.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 17, 2018 8:37:14 GMT -5
I tried this change this morning and found it to be bad.
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Post by drspendlove on Jul 17, 2018 10:35:26 GMT -5
Can you elaborate Cory? I was on the fence, at best, but I'm wondering what you discovered.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 17, 2018 10:48:38 GMT -5
It seemed to make combat look one sided. It wasn't clear what was happening.
It appears to remove tension, you don't know they are using high level Talents
since both sides are entering turns blind, it doesn't seem to change player strats
it falls into a few anti-pattern categories from a game design standpoint
- hiding important data
- obfuscating key mechanics (symmetry)
- reducing player agency
- eliminating tension
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Post by drspendlove on Jul 17, 2018 11:42:13 GMT -5
Makes sense to me. The only way I could see this still working is if:
A) There were talents that had a special side-effect of revealing talents
B) All hidden talents were high level talents and thus introduce tension by that threat
C) These hidden talents have strong ways to counter them if they are revealed or guessed correctly
D) If not revealed but they expire, they display which talent they were somewhere (even if only in the log)
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Post by fallen on Jul 17, 2018 13:20:36 GMT -5
Still just adds a required step to be constantly trying to use Talents to spot enemy Talents. The test was highly revealing and its an anti-pattern we won't be adding. We've got a lot of other exciting things planned for ship combat.
Thanks for the suggestion tho!
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 17, 2018 22:00:18 GMT -5
I mean I thought it might possibly potentially work too. That's why I spent the time to code and test it just to see.
The results were clear. We will accept them.
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Post by John Robinson on Jul 18, 2018 11:05:11 GMT -5
Quote-1 I have an idea that might better capture the feeling of "WWII submarines/battleships in space" in ship combat. What if we couldn't always see what talents the enemy is firing? If an enemy buffs itself, the tooltip would just say something like "2 hidden effects". There could be sensor Talents that reveal what Talents/buffs the other ship is using. Some ship Talents might be excepted from this rule, and always reveal their effect. Quote-2 I mean I thought it might possibly potentially work too. That's why I spent the time to code and test it just to see.The results were clear. We will accept them. quote-3 I wouldn't care for that. If the foe is using evasive maneuvers, it should be visible. If they were barking orders, then no. Either they'd need to differentiate between hidden and exposed talents/buffs or drop the idea. Quote-4 It seemed to make combat look one sided. It wasn't clear what was happening. It appears to remove tension, you don't know they are using high level Talents since both sides are entering turns blind, it doesn't seem to change player strats it falls into a few anti-pattern categories from a game design standpoint - hiding important data - obfuscating key mechanics (symmetry) - reducing player agency - eliminating tension Quote-5 Still just adds a required step to be constantly trying to use Talents to spot enemy Talents. The test was highly revealing and its an anti-pattern we won't be adding. We've got a lot of other exciting things planned for ship combat. Thanks for the suggestion tho!
I read this thread several times. Put on another pot of coffee, and read it again.
Quote 1 & 2:
This is not WWII. This not like the movie "Enemy Below", with Mitchem and Jurgens. This is millions of years in the future
of the human race. In WWII, prior to asdic, sonar, radar, and aircraft carriers. For several years submarines were the ultimate weapons.
Submarines nearly starved Britain into surrendering.
Soon after submarines followed the "Das Boot" model, called the end of the "Good times". Radar could detect surfaced submarines miles away.
Battleship radar guided gunnery allowed american ships to fire over the horizon at night, and hit their targets.
Very few IJN ships were equipped with radar, and none with radar guided guns.
Once advanced aircraft carriers became available there was no where to hide, and carriers broke the back of enemy navies.
Something to keep in mind when STF introduces launching small ships into combat.
STF is millions of years beyond Star Trek next generation, advanced sensors commonplace. Under certain circumstances.
The automation could also detect and initiate a red alert without being commanded to do so. Bridge officers often
provided detailed information about the ships attacking them. It's reasonable to assume STF detection has advanced quite a bit since then.
At Starports. There are no ship components for sale that support stealth during combat. There are no ECM jamming components for sale.
There are plenty that provide enhanced accuracy and critical/crippling damage. There are multiple talents that give the ability to board at longer range.
Could you try that without a good intel of the enemy ship capabilities?
Quote-2
Quote 3, 4 & 5. Got it right the first time. It works don't fix it.
Quote-5. Yes! 
Conclusion: Cut to the chase windbag!
It was once said that STF is, "so deep you can swim in it." STF today is so deep you can drown in it. The game has developed
a terrific easy to use UI. The elephant in the room. STF has developed a pretty steep learning curve for the new player. I'll count
myself a veteran player among the drowned.
Each new major content release is eagerly anticipated, and a true work of genius. The trade off is a whole new series of important things to remember
that result in success or failure. I've just spent two days on a wonderful design that became a dismal failure because of misinterpreting a single talent.
Hiding information from a new player during ship combat. Will create an atmosphere of frustration, and thinking the game is cheating.
That's a great combo for negative reviews. Ship combat is one of the best features of the game, and shouldn't be diminished.
With 511 Steam hours under my belt. Like crew combat, transparency of events, in ship combat transparency is crucial to fun factor, especially for
new players.
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Post by drspendlove on Jul 18, 2018 12:18:57 GMT -5
I would argue with only a single point there. In ST4X "Stealth" is how you avoid long-range torpedos. Thus it really might be more Battleship-like than you propose here.
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Post by resistor on Jul 18, 2018 14:03:59 GMT -5
Quote-1 I have an idea that might better capture the feeling of "WWII submarines/battleships in space" in ship combat. What if we couldn't always see what talents the enemy is firing? If an enemy buffs itself, the tooltip would just say something like "2 hidden effects". There could be sensor Talents that reveal what Talents/buffs the other ship is using. Some ship Talents might be excepted from this rule, and always reveal their effect. I read this thread several times. Put on another pot of coffee, and read it again. Quote 1 & 2: This is not WWII. This not like the movie "Enemy Below", with Mitchem and Jurgens. This is millions of years in the future
of the human race. In WWII, prior to asdic, sonar, radar, and aircraft carriers. For several years submarines were the ultimate weapons.
Submarines nearly starved Britain into surrendering. Soon after submarines followed the "Das Boot" model, called the end of the "Good times". Radar could detect surfaced submarines miles away.
Battleship radar guided gunnery allowed american ships to fire over the horizon at night, and hit their targets.
Very few IJN ships were equipped with radar, and none with radar guided guns.
Once advanced aircraft carriers became available there was no where to hide, and carriers broke the back of enemy navies.
Something to keep in mind when STF introduces launching small ships into combat.
STF is millions of years beyond Star Trek next generation, advanced sensors commonplace. Under certain circumstances.
The automation could also detect and initiate a red alert without being commanded to do so. Bridge officers often
provided detailed information about the ships attacking them. It's reasonable to assume STF detection has advanced quite a bit since then.Cory has stated before that he did draw a lot of inspiration from WWII battleships and submarines for ships in STRPG at least, but maybe you are right that is different in the time of STF. At Starports. There are no ship components for sale that support stealth during combat. There are no ECM jamming components for sale. Isn't there? ECCM screen component was added in update #61. Did it get removed or something? I would argue with only a single point there. In ST4X "Stealth" is how you avoid long-range torpedos. Thus it really might be more Battleship-like than you propose here. Stealth was the main skill for movement and avoiding torps at long range in STRPG as well. It's interesting how Stealth skill does nothing for ship combat in STF. |
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Post by fallen on Jul 18, 2018 14:11:50 GMT -5
It's interesting how Stealth skill does nothing for ship combat in STF. Notably, there were no off the ship stealth related activities to do in ST RPG really  |
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Post by John Robinson on Jul 18, 2018 16:50:22 GMT -5
resistor Howdy Pardner Skills wiki link Stealth is listed under Crew Combat skills, not in Ship Ops skill pools. "Stealth If in Stealth Mode in crew combat, crew members gain a 10% + Stealth Skill chance of scoring a Critical Hit when attacking Increases rewards when trying access a Black Market Can be tested with Captain's Charisma to use Daring Disguise or Spice Hall Sneak to complete certain missions. Can be tested with Captain's Quickness to use Sneaky Slip to complete certain missions. Increases the effectiveness of some Spy and Sniper Talents Secondary skill to dodge ranged attacks in crew combat if higher than Tactics skill" Component Upgrades: I landed on a planet with Starport(10) "Legendary". Then went shopping. After examining all components for small, medium and large. I found no stealth or ecm components built for ship combat. There are plenty of defensive, and offensive components to make ships harder or easier to hit. There are none to make ship combat events invisible, like a Romulan cloaking device. I think Picard would prefer the Romulans, and Klingons had not developed these components. (version 2.3.15). Currently we can see what is happening during combat, and get the blow by blow details in the after action combat log. I think transparency is important to accurate play. I'm about to start a game on hard difficulty, and would rather not go in blind. Talents. I see no current talents that provide a reduced visibility of actions, and effects on your ship during combat. The Electronics tech would be a natural if required. At any rate, it is just an opinion. The final decision rests with Cory Trese ,and fallen . I'm sure whatever change occurs will be fair and balanced. I would appreciate reaffirmation if Quote-2 is final or not. Thanks everybody for your patience, slogging through the long read. 
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