2-H Weapons v. Shields

[havnor]

But if you scale 4AP and maybe 3AP dmg you will end one hitting most mobs with good setup... And it will force you to use boring choke-point passive style just waiting for slowly bringing enemy down one by one.

It will be a lot of work but maybe anything which will sell these weapons is special talent in vein of Phalanx Shield usable only with 2H-weapon. Probably simple AOE attack will do it.

[AMiCuBS Kitteh]

Hmm. That could be a possible solution (new talent). But then Vraes becomes far too talent heavy comparatively speaking. Maybe adding different scaling to a pre-existing one, maybe. I still think, as it is an issue with item stats mainly, that it should be solved there, ie as per my previous post with higher stat weights on the 2h-ers or something like that. It ends up being cleaner that way on the user end.

[commiades]

Apr 15, 2019 14:26:17 GMT -5 havnor said:

But if you scale 4AP and maybe 3AP dmg you will end one hitting most mobs with good setup... And it will force you to use boring choke-point passive style just waiting for slowly bringing enemy down one by one.

It will be a lot of work but maybe anything which will sell these weapons is special talent in vein of Phalanx Shield usable only with 2H-weapon. Probably simple AOE attack will do it.

I do like that idea. I'm near the end of Episode 4 with this party on Nightmare after boosting in. I've long since given up on 2-h weapons for Vraes, and even 3 ap 1-h ones. 2-h weapons (or 3 ap weapons) get no strength bonus relative to 2 ap ones, as in effect both types get the strength bonus for each ap used to attack, so if you have 30 strength (18 strength and 10 NM), you get 3 x 60 for a 2 ap weapon and 2 x 90 for a 3 ap one; the difference is that in my experience if you have to move, you're more likely to be able to get two 2 ap attacks where in a similar situation you'd only get one 3 ap attack.

I gave up on 2-h weapons when armour stopped protecting against attacks. At that point a shield was too good to overlook. I now have Vraes on Ferocity 10 and BR 10 using a 2 ap spear and having 45% Crit and 220% Crit Dmg. He hits 1200-1500 for crits regularly (if he could use Sacrifice, the party would never need to camp!). To make 2-H weapons viable, I think they need better parrying advantages; this seems reasonable for polearms and 2-h swords at least. An AoE ability would also be fun for Vraes; Fyona has one, but I'd be reluctant to use her without a shield (also an extra attack is handy when she is debuffing).

Another way to make 2-h weapons more attractive might be to allow a bracer on the off hand slot. That would balance out losing the bonuses of the shield slot (Vraes' shield gives him SP and SP drain on top of it defensive bonuses).

To summarise ideas I think would help are:

1. make the Str damage bonus greater for 2-h attacks (say 4 fold for 3 ap 2-h attacks and 6-8 fold for 4 ap attacks).
2. boost the parry bonus of 2-h weapons to account for their reach (and make the loss of a shield less severe).
3. allow a someone wielding a 2-h weapon to use the off-hand slot for a bracer.
4. consider an AoE attack only available to a 2-h weapon.

[AMiCuBS Kitteh]

Oddly enough I am not sure even THAT would be enough to make the 4AP worth. I have been turning this issue in my head off and on (more off than on tbh), for quite sometime now, and i have yet to find anything that really makes the 4AP worth (outside of revamping or adding talents, which i am nominally against for this type of issue) compared to the admittedly (quite) large benefits of going 1h+shield. The availability of 3AP in 1h formats further exasperates this issue. now you REALLY have no impetus (other than style points really) to go with the 4AP or even 2h in general (especially for my preferred style of Ferocity > juggernaut).

Although giving him an AE attack still probably does not fix 4AP, you would still be better off going 1h+shield (3AP 1h if you want the larger numbers) and still getting the extra attack off, whilst enjoying the benefits of shields. If that, I would probably add it to Sweeping Strikes, thematically appropriate, but then lose the damage boosts of Crushing or Ferocity. And Sweeping ceases to be a cheap attack because the AE would necessitate an SP increase probably. Adding it to Ferocity would be my second (and preferred for power reasons) choice. Gives Ferocity a bit of extra balance tuning vs. Juggernaut also (which seems to be the new meta?). Then you would end up with Ferocity for HARD HITS ( so go for that large AP attack), and Juggernaut is the equivalent of that D&D 3.5 million attacks in one round munchkin build. If this route, to be interesting I would like a vector AE template (a la PS/LS/RO etc) as opposed to standard (ES/Reck). BUT at the end of it all, I do not want Vraes going with everyone else and having AE. My understanding is he is meant to be the Single Target damage King (although I have heard a long while back that Selen can eclipse him eventually). So I would want to REALLY go all in on the single target murderbot that Vraes can become.

Hmm adding far increased parry on a 2h weapon does not work/make sense to me either (but then I am a HEMA practitioner so would  be looking at it through the lens of real world physics, and known practice). the bracer idea has potential merit though. Functions such as bracers of armor in D&D (gah, I say realism a sentence earlier then i pull from D&D). That would allow you the stat stick, while still taking up both weapon slots. heck it works similar to how bows work for Tam and Selen then, and is more immersible/believable. After all they get their 'stat sticks' whilst they are not even wielding them! But then have we opened the bracer up to staff users then? yet another potential can of worms opened up with this type of fix. Another reason i was leaning more towards stat adjustment/weighting.

[sparda4]

I personally go shields due to the MP buffs some shields have and simply because of damage nuffication. I'm not eating shots with Vraes and Fyona but block them out period. I do see the appeal of 2H but it's just not my playstyle. But i will for sure say this. They can be BRUTALLY effective in single target squishing.

[drspendlove]

Hmm... What about a single change? Two-handed weapons grant +1 AP per turn to the user. Then a 4 AP would hit twice, a 3 AP would hit twice with some action/movement left over. Shield would keep the usual 1-3 AP range options open with better defense.

[brentaur]

Apr 15, 2019 23:38:19 GMT -5 AMiCuBS Kitteh said:

Oddly enough I am not sure even THAT would be enough to make the 4AP worth. I have been turning this issue in my head off and on (more off than on tbh), for quite sometime now, and i have yet to find anything that really makes the 4AP worth (outside of revamping or adding talents, which i am nominally against for this type of issue) compared to the admittedly (quite) large benefits of going 1h+shield. The availability of 3AP in 1h formats further exasperates this issue. now you REALLY have no impetus (other than style points really) to go with the 4AP or even 2h in general (especially for my preferred style of Ferocity > juggernaut).

Although giving him an AE attack still probably does not fix 4AP, you would still be better off going 1h+shield (3AP 1h if you want the larger numbers) and still getting the extra attack off, whilst enjoying the benefits of shields. If that, I would probably add it to Sweeping Strikes, thematically appropriate, but then lose the damage boosts of Crushing or Ferocity. And Sweeping ceases to be a cheap attack because the AE would necessitate an SP increase probably. Adding it to Ferocity would be my second (and preferred for power reasons) choice. Gives Ferocity a bit of extra balance tuning vs. Juggernaut also (which seems to be the new meta?). Then you would end up with Ferocity for HARD HITS ( so go for that large AP attack), and Juggernaut is the equivalent of that D&D 3.5 million attacks in one round munchkin build. If this route, to be interesting I would like a vector AE template (a la PS/LS/RO etc) as opposed to standard (ES/Reck). BUT at the end of it all, I do not want Vraes going with everyone else and having AE. My understanding is he is meant to be the Single Target damage King (although I have heard a long while back that Selen can eclipse him eventually). So I would want to REALLY go all in on the single target murderbot that Vraes can become.

Hmm adding far increased parry on a 2h weapon does not work/make sense to me either (but then I am a HEMA practitioner so would  be looking at it through the lens of real world physics, and known practice). the bracer idea has potential merit though. Functions such as bracers of armor in D&D (gah, I say realism a sentence earlier then i pull from D&D). That would allow you the stat stick, while still taking up both weapon slots. heck it works similar to how bows work for Tam and Selen then, and is more immersible/believable. After all they get their 'stat sticks' whilst they are not even wielding them! But then have we opened the bracer up to staff users then? yet another potential can of worms opened up with this type of fix. Another reason i was leaning more towards stat adjustment/weighting.

I have to respectfully disagree on the question of 2H spears having a much higher parry bonus than 1H. Coming from a Chinese MA background, 2H spears are extremely versatile and very good at partying. A shield would still have the advantage on defense, but 2H (spears at least) can be used effectively for all kinds of cool defensive techniques.

In-game I think 1H and shield for Vraes wins most of the time. Phalanx shield is so good, and the additional set of bonuses (esp. When crafted) and extra attacks, offer so many advantages. In spite of this, I still play 2H spear-master Vraes because I just like it.

[drspendlove]

Apr 16, 2019 14:24:42 GMT -5 brentaur said:

Coming from a Chinese MA background, 2H spears are extremely versatile and very good at partying.  

They should give a morale bonus to the group.

[AMiCuBS Kitteh]

Apr 16, 2019 14:24:42 GMT -5 brentaur said:

Apr 15, 2019 23:38:19 GMT -5 AMiCuBS Kitteh said:

Oddly enough I am not sure even THAT would be enough to make the 4AP worth. I have been turning this issue in my head off and on (more off than on tbh), for quite sometime now, and i have yet to find anything that really makes the 4AP worth (outside of revamping or adding talents, which i am nominally against for this type of issue) compared to the admittedly (quite) large benefits of going 1h+shield. The availability of 3AP in 1h formats further exasperates this issue. now you REALLY have no impetus (other than style points really) to go with the 4AP or even 2h in general (especially for my preferred style of Ferocity > juggernaut).

Although giving him an AE attack still probably does not fix 4AP, you would still be better off going 1h+shield (3AP 1h if you want the larger numbers) and still getting the extra attack off, whilst enjoying the benefits of shields. If that, I would probably add it to Sweeping Strikes, thematically appropriate, but then lose the damage boosts of Crushing or Ferocity. And Sweeping ceases to be a cheap attack because the AE would necessitate an SP increase probably. Adding it to Ferocity would be my second (and preferred for power reasons) choice. Gives Ferocity a bit of extra balance tuning vs. Juggernaut also (which seems to be the new meta?). Then you would end up with Ferocity for HARD HITS ( so go for that large AP attack), and Juggernaut is the equivalent of that D&D 3.5 million attacks in one round munchkin build. If this route, to be interesting I would like a vector AE template (a la PS/LS/RO etc) as opposed to standard (ES/Reck). BUT at the end of it all, I do not want Vraes going with everyone else and having AE. My understanding is he is meant to be the Single Target damage King (although I have heard a long while back that Selen can eclipse him eventually). So I would want to REALLY go all in on the single target murderbot that Vraes can become.

Hmm adding far increased parry on a 2h weapon does not work/make sense to me either (but then I am a HEMA practitioner so would  be looking at it through the lens of real world physics, and known practice). the bracer idea has potential merit though. Functions such as bracers of armor in D&D (gah, I say realism a sentence earlier then i pull from D&D). That would allow you the stat stick, while still taking up both weapon slots. heck it works similar to how bows work for Tam and Selen then, and is more immersible/believable. After all they get their 'stat sticks' whilst they are not even wielding them! But then have we opened the bracer up to staff users then? yet another potential can of worms opened up with this type of fix. Another reason i was leaning more towards stat adjustment/weighting.

I have to respectfully disagree on the question of 2H spears having a much higher parry bonus than 1H. Coming from a Chinese MA background, 2H spears are extremely versatile and very good at partying. A shield would still have the advantage on defense, but 2H (spears at least) can be used effectively for all kinds of cool defensive techniques.

In-game I think 1H and shield for Vraes wins most of the time. Phalanx shield is so good, and the additional set of bonuses (esp. When crafted) and extra attacks, offer so many advantages. In spite of this, I still play 2H spear-master Vraes because I just like it.

And as a primary spear user in my art, i would agree with you that spears are fairly versatile in going from offense to defense and back again (and sometimes simultaneously in a sense), but honestly most of the defense of a spear (and most polearms/reach weapons in general) is its reach. Compared to a strictly one handed weapon (nothing in the offhand) yeah a skilled user of the spear wins on defensive merits, but the one hand with even a buckler in the offhand comes out on top defensively.

And (back on topic) as it applies to this game (and Vraes in particular, but Fyona as well), I am not aware of anyone using a 1h without a shield, so in that sense yeah one hand is far superior defensively (even without phalanx shield) as it should be.

And yes I love the look and feel of 2h Spear Vraes as well. My prob is with its efficacy coming in far behind what I would be getting overall with a 1h/shield combo. Supplementary stat discrepancy alone (especially with crafting) it falls far short. also... 3 attacks vs 2, as pointed out MANY times by matrim (albeit in 1AP vs 2 but the logic/maths still work out similarly) falls mathematically short in overall raw damage, as well as the versatility in having that spread amongst multiple attacks. Although his maths were with Strickening in mind, it still bears out fairly well in regard to vs armor, as long as you are building up your damage in a fairly logical sense (average dmg rolls being higher then overcomes armor more readily), also there is always going with a party with the idea of reducing armor, then we are in a parallel case to his Strickening scenario (although later you will not see the negative armor happenings as you would get with Strickening on resists).

[brentaur]

I can't argue with any of the math, but if we're kicking around ideas about how to balance things a little more evenly between 1H & shield vs. 2H, at least for spears, then I think pumping up both damage and parry bonuses for 2H spears a little more is both fair and not too unrealistic.

[AMiCuBS Kitteh]

Another idea I was kicking around today (in between naps, days off though rare are GREAT for that), which would go as a two prong approach to solving this issue.

One: bumping the minimum damage increase that Strength provides to 3 and 4 AP weapons. Yes this would bump 3AP 1h as well, which as pointed out above (via comparison to the strickening case of 1 v 2 AP) does come in behind in damage due to less attacks. This possibly might buff Juggernaut even more though. Which might pull it further ahead in performance vs Ferocity, even if only in perception (which from a design standpoint also often matters).

Two: Allow STR to buff the Max damage on 2h only.

This would probably result in less work than changing stat scalings (via AP or 2h), as I suggested above, as well as less work than dropping in the bracer idea from above as well.
It also further reinforces the All-In damage role that 2h weapons fill by logic and design.

Just a quick thought I had today. Not as much figuring put into it as i had the idea and possible outcome and whatnot of the stat weights idea, so would need further fleshing out and numbers tweaking (not that the other 2 ideas I have espoused would not also require that as well).

[havnor]

STR just for two handed means no Kyera, Vincent, Kincaid and Selen without STR bonus dmg. It will be nerf to other heroes as well.

[AMiCuBS Kitteh]

not necessarily a nerf they still have the same damage as they do now. just the 2 hander's get more.

But since they are already somewhat under performing at just pure damage per round that is ok.

[commiades]

After all this criticism of 2-h weapons. I went back to one for Vraes in the last part of Episode 4 (a war glaive with 140% crit dmg!). I found Fer 10, Br 10 and NM 10, plus BoS 3 was giving him crits for over 2,000 (I would go with NM over SSk based on my experience; it adds to parry and adds nicely to base damage). When we got to the boss fight, he had Spines of the Weaver and was criting over 80% of the time; he ruined anything he touched; his biggest challenge was leaving the bosses for someone else to collect the XP; he was only partially successful). My initial build used SSk and when he started taking damage I went for a shield. If I could go back, I might have stuck with the 2-h weapon and NM.

On a frivolous note, what if Vraes could convert his excess SP into HP! When he starts getting ridiculous crit damage his SP skyrockets; a talent to convert them to HP would be tempting to make use of this.

[AMiCuBS Kitteh]

The numbers there sound about right in the general ballpark for that build. And that build with a 1h+shield would probably yield similar overall damage per round numbers (off the top of my head (NOT going to plug a sim for this)) probably ~ 5-8% less (of course that is with making some admittedly dangerous assumptions, that I kind of have to make as I do not have a group in that range atm to test with).

And heck, maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill here (although I do not feel I am going THAT overboard), but I feel 2h weapons should not be doing barely above 1h+shield, considering what you have to give up. If i had to just immediately, no thought, throw out a number, I would think somewhere in the 15% zone would be more fitting.