2-H Weapons v. Shields

[commiades]

Now that crafting has becomes such an important part of the game, using a 2-H weapon involves a double sacrifice. You give up the Parry protection of a shield, and you give up the crafting that can be gained from a shield (for comparison, I sometimes use Tamilin, Kincaid or Selen with a weapon in their off hand that is chosen solely for the buffing it provides).

To date I've not persevered with a build that has Vraes using a 2-H weapon. At some point he gets hit too much and opts for a shield. I'm currently using him at Level 23 (I think) with SSk 10, BoS 3, NM 1 and Fer 1. He has just got an Executioner's Blade and is wearing uncrafted Bone Plate Chain (run out of Bloodstones). He's not getting hit at all, even Skeleton Archers are doing negligible damage (Vincent's FA 8 is a big factor too). I'm using Ferocity, as it combines well with the increased minimum damage of 2-H weapons.

This build has established for me that no shield is possible (before I'd not taken SSk so high, running it in tandem with other talents). However, do you think that 2-H weapons are worth the sacrifice of a shield? Especially when you can get the same damage bonus for strength with a 3 AP 1-H weapon.

Or to put it another way, are the crafted 2-H weapons better than a 1-H weapon and a shield? I admit that I quite like builds that include mages in robes with staves, as these save on bloodstones.

A final, and only tangentially related, question: how effective is Juggernaut with 3AP weapons?

[fallen]

Saving bloodstones is good. Depending on the build, I decide between 1H and 2H. My current end game team carries 1H mace (2 AP) because I use Juggernaut and I want as many swings as I can to land that 1,000 Dmg Critical and get my kill. Depending on the exact build out of team buffs, I do 3 AP Juggernaut, but recently I've enjoyed the 1H with 3 swings more. It also works so nicely when you get +AP for those extra hits. Sometimes, I've moved 15 squares, swung 6 times and killed 5 enemies. Makes Tami smile ;P

Your build with Ferocity sounds killer and the right set of buffs and help from other team members to make it sing. I think you've hit on a big part of it -- making sure that it fits within the team structure, buffs, bloodstone counts. If Vraes only crafts 2H weapons, that leaves another set of stones for Fyona (etc) to do shield and hammer more readily.

[Cory Trese]

I've only ever been able to get Vraes into the end game with a 2H hammer. Everything else just doesn't hit hard enough.

[commiades]

Thanks. I've been surprised at how effective he's proven on this build. I'm resisting getting any non-lore talents, which makes it easier to buff him and advance his skills. It's always a wrench, though, when he's the last to attack in a turn, and there are two enemy on 10 hp or others that he's unlikely to kill -- that's when I want him to go down the juggernaut route.

He's in a build that has no 1 AP attackers. Selen has a 3 AP bow and PS 8, while both Fyona and Vincent are using 2 AP weapons. I may yet look at getting Fyona kitted out with a 2-H hammer, but she's more resilient with the shield, and she does a bit of AP debuffing with her Reckoning, so the extra attack is useful.

[havnor]

For me the powergaming way is 3ap 1H-hammer with shield. Best possible way with current changes for Stregth scaling.

Buffs from shield, weapon and also massive bonus minimum dmg. Even 2H-weapon can't do so good. Especially on Vreas with Phalanx Shield. Also for Kyera and for Fyona it is also better.

You can argue that 2H-spears or swords can have some good stats but combination of offense and defense with hammer shield combo is better in numbers (but only with phalanx).

[fallen]

With the new Strength maximums and the bonuses from Natural Mastery, I find that my Min Strength bonus can be wasted with 1H weapons.

Great thread!

[havnor]

Mar 27, 2019 16:01:45 GMT -5 fallen said:

With the new Strength maximums and the bonuses from Natural Mastery, I find that my Min Strength bonus can be wasted with 1H weapons.

Great thread!

But still they are good for more defensive build. For me personally this way it is much better. You really can feel difference between 1H and 2H weapons.

[commiades]

I could see Ferocity and a 3AP 1-H weapon working for getting maximum strength bonus, but I'm pleased to see 2-H weapons are viable; I'd always given up on them, reverting to sword and shield.

In terms of armour soak on ranged attacks, what sort of damage do Episode 4 ranged do? Some of the Weaver's minions are pretty brutal; lack of shields and their auto-block could start to hurt. Currently even skeleton archers are hardly making a dent on Fyona and Vraes.

[commiades]

Well, the honeymoon with this group finally ended; they were cruising through the CoD with virtually nobody doing major damage. They had just finished visiting the Storm Bros and stopped off to visit Gholla Heights where Vraes was almost killed at the first combat -- he stepped out and was surrounded and each blow was doing around 100-200 damage. It was time to add some gear to add Parry and Dodge.

Still no deaths, it's just their immunity had lasted so long I was beginning to think it was permanent. The periodic change in the ability of encounters depending on level makes things interesting. An encounter that one party meets at Level 18 may be a breeze, while another party meeting it later finds the enemy dangerous, and vice versa. It's mostly comes from becoming overconfident. I've learnt to be caution of Ratkin in places like the Darkmoss or Crag Peak. I'm more blasé about Orcin, as they mostly miss and the Storm Bros ones had been doing negligible damage. Hopefully from now on Vraes can stay ahead of attackers by boosting NM (too much BR is probably not wise, but hard to resist).

[fallen]

commiades that first brush with a higher tier of enemies costs many ironmen groups their lives. Well done to survive it.

[AMiCuBS Kitteh]

my question is this: even if case could be made for 3AP 2H weapons (although i am still not sold on that vs 1h (especially 3AP 1h) + Shield), is there anyone out there using 4AP weapons?

[havnor]

Apr 13, 2019 23:30:34 GMT -5 AMiCuBS Kitteh said:

my question is this: even if case could be made for 3AP 2H weapons (although i am still not sold on that vs 1h (especially 3AP 1h) + Shield), is there anyone out there using 4AP weapons?

Only build i could think of to be working for 4AP is:
-Natural Mastery and Berserke Rage - for maximum dmg no point of 4AP if you dont go dmg
-Juggernauth - to get AP for kill and do two attacks in round
-Burst of Speed - to get to your pray withou wasting single AP

This dmg could be good against bosses but you would probably had to oneshot some mob and then move with second attack to boss and repeat this every round to be at least somewhat efficient.

[AMiCuBS Kitteh]

yeah i just see no scenario where 4AP is worth. mathematically hard to see where 3AP is worth outside of Juggernaut shenanigans.
Never really seem to get as much use out of 3 AP as 2 AP with Ferocity. Numbers just a'int adding up there.

[drspendlove]

Would it make a difference if 4 AP were treated specially due to it being your only attack? Such as:

4AP gains 500% Strength bonus to minimum damage, a baseline +20% Accuracy, and a baseline multiplier of 1.3x to whatever your critical damage multiplier and bonuses adds up to.

In other words, are there smaller balance changes that could make it worthwhile? I'd imagine such an accuracy bonus could make it attractive against foes you otherwise had little hope of hitting.

[AMiCuBS Kitteh]

Yeah, in keeping with the OP topic of this thread (sort of), the fact that 4AP weapons (and to a lesser extent 3AP) can struggle (mathematically damage wise at least) just against 2AP. Add in crafted shield + 1h vs a 2h, and it really does become a VERY hard sell. Especially to one such as myself that prefers going Ferocity as opposed to Juggernaut (as that fits my Vraes style fantasy in a much more satisfying manner).

On the one hand, the quick answer might be to buff the 3/4 AP stat weighting (AND possibly something like what the above poster mentioned), but then we might be out-scaling intended, well, damage scaling. but the other end of the spectrum involves nerfing the (crafted) shields, which is also a bad route to go, from both a player and a DEV perspective usually, nerfs just feel bad man. And no one likes feeling bad. Can't make Fyona sad after all. Quite possible i have not put enough thinking time into a 3rd route.

I am not sure which route might be preferable from DEV standpoint, I do not have access to the data that they would have to work from. But from this end of this particular Phone/PC, this seems to be an issue.

I would be interested to hear if Cory Trese and/or fallen think that they (3/4AP) are balanced vs 2AP/1h+Shield stat and damage wise, and if the scaling is working comparatively well overall (or where the major breakdown between the two happens to be) from the numbers they have access to and their intent.

As far as the trade off mentioned by OP of high defense vs heavier offense, that part seems fair so far. but the damage numbers just do not add up comparatively. and the stat stick aspect definitely do not line up from what i have seen so far. Maybe it gets better in later act 3 and act 4? although I would think that it should not be so one-sided earlier than that as well.