Smuggling Ideas

[Cory Trese]

Smugglers make money by taking a trade permit with one Faction, buying stuff from them and running it past (De Valtos and Ryart, if you are Javat) and sell it on independent worlds for mad bank.

I like this thread and I'm 100% behind the idea that "all rumors should be both opportunities and problems."

I am thinking ... keep posting ideas.

[spike]

Can Smugglers really make money this way? Permit or no Permit, sneaky-past or no sneaky-past, the buy vs sell spreads on restricted/contraband goods seem always to be way too high to make a profit. I figured this was because selling these goods gives you Rep, so to balance that, the profit is squeezed.

In general I don't see how Smugglers are different from Merchants. Merchants just have more product types to choose from, and don't always have to do a sneaky-past at the Selling end. I don't see why the Smuggler wouldn't just say, to heck with this risky sneaky-past stuff, I'm just going to get a Permit at the Sell end as well, and call myself a legitimate Rogue Trader.

Key question: what benefit does the Smuggler get for his efforts to sneaky-past the goods in and out of worlds, versus just buying a Permit for a small sum, radically reducing his risk of arrest, seizure, ship damage and bodily harm? At this point I don't see any benefit, but maybe I am missing something.

I am confused because Smugglers sound like they are actually Merchants and Merchants (from the Character Class guide) sound like they are actually Explorers or Explorer-Harvesters.

But yes this is a great thread, lots of ideas here about how to enrich the Smuggling experience.

[Cory Trese]

I guess it depends a lot on your perspective. If you expect ST RPG to be another game then it won't be that other game and you will be disappointed.

A Merchant that does not use Rumors is a transporter, I guess. If you Harvest, you're an Explorer? Why?

I do like the idea of tying the new Stash missions to bans and taxes.

That's clever

[Cory Trese]

spike said: "Can Smugglers really make money this way? Permit or no Permit, sneaky-past or no sneaky-past, the buy vs sell spreads on restricted/contraband goods seem always to be way too high to make a profit. I figured this was because selling these goods gives you Rep, so to balance that, the profit is squeezed."

This is definitely a question that needs to be answered. I hope that the answer is "yes" but without testing and some calculations, I won't know. I'm going to investigate!

[spike]

OK, Merchants vs Smugglers. In a way they are the same kind of animal, with some shades of grey from one extreme to the other. But the key difference for me has to be that

1. the Smuggler has some technical ability to do some illegal thing (or maybe everyone can technically do it but the Smuggler is more competent).

2. this illegal thing, if successful, gives the Smuggler a better profit margin, a better benefit vs cost.

Now in the current game, the only illegal thing the Smuggler can do better is to sneaky-past a warship that is trying to carry out a justified legal search on him. Basically the Smuggler is better at illegally transporting stuff - which makes sense.

Unfortunately, the Smuggler has no better ability to Buy or Sell illegally. This means he can't actually make money by doing illegal things. His ability to illegally transport does not benefit him (except to the extent he can avoid buying more Permits, maybe).

The Smuggler ends up being a Merchant who takes some more risks in transport, and can carry a few less Permits as a result. Though probably he would be better off (less risk) just getting the Permits.

So the Smuggler and the Merchant are the same, which is undesirable obviously.

What is needed is a way for Smugglers (or all characters, with Smugglers being the most proficient) to be able to Buy and Sell illegally.

Illegally could mean

- contraband without a Permit
- avoiding Taxes
- avoiding Bans
- trading when Exchange is closed?
- etc

This ability is key to the definition of a Smuggler and it does not currently exist as a game mechanic. So far the creation of Black Markets is the most promising way of solving this problem, but a lot of the details still need working out.

At the moment the only genuine Smuggler activity is the transport Contracts. In these it is possible to deliver something illegally and get paid for it.

[Cory Trese]

We could make trading with independents illegal, more profitable and give the smuggler bonuses for avoiding the reputation loss.

That would essentially convert all independent zones into black markets.

I am reading and re-reading this spike -- I will find something to make this cool =)

[spike]

It might be going too far to convert all Independents into black markets, and with risks/penalties for trading with them. But it's reasonable that black markets might be more common amongst the Independent worlds, less so (or harder to access??) on the Faction worlds.

You already have a pretty sophisticated economic model going on, here's some ideas about how you could couple it to Black Markets.

1. The black market only exist if some government, probably the local planet government, is interfering with the market. Otherwise there's just an open market and no reason to have a black market.
2. This government interference can take the form of bans, taxes, declaring things 'contraband', trade embargos, etc.
3. Interference raises costs (Buy prices) or reduces revenues (Sell prices) or reduces demand or reduces supply, or combinations of these.
4. Basically government interference drives away some of the demand or some of the supply, or both, and moves that supply & demand on to the Black market - at prices that reflect 'real' demand, 'real' supply.

So I'm thinking you can literally model this by shifting demand into the Black market when the government raises the Buy price of something / taxes it, or bans it; shift supply into the Black market when the government raises the Sell price / taxes / bans.

The other thing you can do, though it's probably complicated, is start to model taxation (if you're not already doing so behind the scenes).

As a simplification, you have a tax level on each world, it can just be a % for starters. Every buy and sell transaction includes this much tax. For Buy transactions it is a mark-up above the 'normal' price, extra % that the Buyer has to pay. For Sell transactions it's a deduction from revenue, the Captain receives the sale proceeds, minus this % tax.

Actually it might be easier, and more in keeping with the story, if taxes are only paid at the Sell end.

So Smugglers (and maybe others, but Smugglers are the best at it) have some ability to avoid paying this tax. This could be implemented with a specific check to see if they avoid the tax. This would need to be a 2-stage check - Do you attempt to evade tax? Succeed/Fail. If you fail, do you get caught?

Rather than this complicated multi stage check, it would probably be easier to implement the Black Market ideas being discussed.

Plan B -

It might be even simpler to implement this "tax check" just based on whether you Surrender to a government warship or privateer. If you surrender to a warship or Privateer, at (or near?) some planet, you automatically must pay their tax or observe their ban (confiscation). (If you don't have their tax money they confiscate some of your cargo or other penalties until they get paid). This then ties evasion of customs duties to the existing Stealth skills. The idea would be if you bypass the government patrol ships and make it to the Market, you are home free and you can sell whatever you like. Maybe that approach could even extend to contraband?? So you don't need any Permit to sell contraband, provided you can make it to the Exchange without surrendering to a search.

Coming back to the discussion above, it makes sneaking the goods past the cops, the whole deal, the thing that gets you home free and in the money. So it matches the way the skill system already works for Smugglers. Merchants become the guys who are not fly enough to work around the official blockades, so they have to buy and sell (or neither) according to government rules and prices. So we get a useful distinction between Merchants and Smugglers - honest and boring vs skillfull and risky.

This approach creates a possible complaint of "I was just passing through with this cargo, I didn't plan to sell it here". Well we already have that problem when transporting contraband through areas where we don't have Permit, Rank, etc.

I'm not saying this is a perfect solution, but it could be implemented more easily and it doesn't require creation of new skills. Using explicit in-game Black Markets is probably going to require a Streetwise/Corruption/Underworld skill, and a new skill will invalidate existing investment in Captains, which I know you don't want. Or you could just extend the scope of the existing Stealth skill to include Black Market activities - it probably already includes "keeping a low profile" as much as it includes "keeping a low radar signature". But the risk there is it might make the Stealth skill too powerful.

Anyway hopefully these are some semi-concrete ideas.

Last thought - Merchants should initiate attacks on one class of vessel: Smugglers. Smugglers are their "unfair competition". At the very least, they should call the cops. If they think they can get away with it, they should come in with guns blazing.

[sgtcookie]

If black markets are going to be implemented then theoretically they would be based in spice halls, since the authorities don't really have any hold on what goes on there then getting caught is not a worry. The only problem that a spacer has to worry about is getting to a black market, the market itself might be based some where else that the police do have a hold of.

On higher security worlds this is going to happen to a lot of captains who don't have a high stealth, but on low security worlds the chances of you getting caught are much, much lower.

The black market, in my view, would not just be an exchange there would be black market upgrades, black market ships, black market contracts.

This "black port" is where a captain gets all the upgrades that allow for smuggling compartments, stealthier ships, illegal weapons, ect. After all, why would a legal star port alter a ship so that it can smuggle better?

In the ship market there are ships that push the boundaries of ship safety, despite the ships being made by the narvidians it is reasonable to assume that people can tune the ship to well beyond "safe" ranges.

We know that it is possible to have a cargo hold for a specific type of cargo, water fuel, so why not make this an innate part of a ship?

Black market ships would come pre equipped with this for contraband items. A good example of this is if it is labeled as a "smuggling" vessel. These vessels are normal ships outfitted with this modification, so a smuggling moon runner, smuggling mars class, ect. This label would not apply to ships in space, but the bonus would. That means that player has to take the ship first and then finds out about the compartments. In space the player has to guess if the ship has a smugglers compartment.

Normally, negotiation is used to determine prices, but in a black port intimidation is used to alter prices.
"Hey, guy with the Tolger (I imagine an amphibious parrot when I say that) either I get a better price on these weapons or I will slice off every finger with a blunt knife, slowly."

Guns and torps from these places are going to be of a higher quality, and at a cheaper price. But there will be less torps and guns to go around.

I mentioned briefly about "black upgrades" these upgrades would be considered illegal to install as they can really fuck with the ship's structural integrity. An example would be heavy plates, it replaces the ships standard hull and provides an "innate" armour of three, but if the ship does get hit and it passes the armour then more damage is taken. One that does not mess with the ship could be a spice refiner, it takes unrefined spice and refines it, the crew will be happier but crew death is going to be more likely.

That's just a few things that I would hope to see.

[spike]

All sounds very good apart from the Intimidation. The black market guys are going to be very tough and hard to intimidate, also heavily armed. Negotiation will still be key. You might need skills to resist their Intimidation and muscle, however, to prevent getting ripped off or just robbed.

[sgtcookie]

I suppose you are right, I thought personaly that intimidation would work better in the black markets. But the way you suggested it would probably be better, perhaps negotiation would get a better sell price and intimidation would get a cheaper buy price?

[spike]

A mix of Intimidation and Negotiation feels like a good choice.

[bnoury]

Maybe a smuggler could make use of a third landing option called outskirts, available only on some planets with both wilderness/urban center, and no planets with only urban. All the danger of a wilderness landing, and you still must sneak or fight your way to where you are going. Smugglers could then get into a black market or exchange to trade, or an assasin could hit his mark if security is poor, and there is a certain risk of arrest/death sneaking/fighting back to your ship. What does everyone else think?

[MTKnife]

Mar 10, 2011 6:00:36 GMT -5 spike said:

I am certainly confused about what Smugglers are supposed to do, how they are supposed to be played. They don't have any game mechanism to evade taxes and violate embargoes, which is one of the main things that real smugglers do. They can try to smuggle contraband, using Stealth etc, but as they can't sell it in a Faction world without a Permit, they may as well forget the Stealth and just get a Permit.

On a side note, Smugglers should probably start with a 6 in Piloting and/or Stealth rather than Tactics. The latter is near the bottom on usefulness for Smugglers--only Explore is more worthless--plus Smugglers start with a 12 in Quickness, but 1's in both skills that use it.

[MTKnife]

Mar 11, 2011 16:58:37 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

Smugglers make money by taking a trade permit with one Faction, buying stuff from them and running it past (De Valtos and Ryart, if you are Javat) and sell it on independent worlds for mad bank.

I like this thread and I'm 100% behind the idea that "all rumors should be both opportunities and problems."

I am thinking ... keep posting ideas.

Yeah, but that doesn't actually work, since the prices they can sell for in Independent worlds are invariably lower than the prices they pay on the faction worlds for which they have permits, and vice versa. Not only is that frustrating, but it does seem unrealistic: if the factions place restrictions on trading the three smuggler goods, then they should be harder to get, which should drive up their sell prices on Independent worlds (a little, anyway, since permits aren't all that hard to get).

[oldalchemist]

Alternately, make better smuggler contracts where you're delivering goods instead of messages.

-"Get this load of torps to Cadar Capital. Meet my contact in the Spice Hall."
-"Get X tons of Clothing to the Pants Resistance on Xeen. I don't know where you're going to get it, but deliver it to the Palace when you've got it."

Smugglers aren't necessarily in the trading business for themselves. Do you really want to take on illegal inventory without a buyer? Move it one time, hand it off, and disappear.