Smuggling Ideas

[Kelvin Zero]

One complaint I'm seeing is that smugglers aren't certain what they are supposed to do. The problem I see is the three contraband items (electronics, weapons, and artifacts) are items that actually everyone wants. But you can't sell even to your own faction unless you have a trade permit.

The idea of a smuggler is someone who is trafficking in an item that a government doesn't want the public to have but select citizens do want and are willing to pay a high price for it. Any item could be an illegal item. A planet of germophobes would want plants to be illegal. A planet of hardcore nudists would ban all clothing.

I would like to see items like electronics, weapons, and artifacts stay items that military ships would still try to confiscate from you if they can as they are try to procure all of these items for their own faction. You would also still need the Trade permit to sell them to a faction unless you are selling it to an independent planet.

In addition each planet may have one or two regular items they would consider illegal. That would mean if you have any of that item on board it could increase your risk of being searched before making to port. Even your own faction's ships would confiscate the items as you were not supposed to bring them there. A smuggler is still not supposed to bring illegal items to their own faction. Being caught smuggling would cause a loss in reputation for that planet's faction, even worse if it was with your own faction.

If you land undetected, you could then sell the illegal item at a "shortage" price at the Exchange. You would be technically be selling it at a black market where there would be none of that item in stock. With this setup, a Smuggler would buy regular items and try to sneak onto planets where they are illegal for maximum profit. A regular Merchant or other Captain would pay attention to a planet's illegal list and avoid trying to land while carrying those items.

Of course that means no one should try smuggling unless they have good pilot, negotiate, and stealth skills. What do you think?

[spike]

I am certainly confused about what Smugglers are supposed to do, how they are supposed to be played. They don't have any game mechanism to evade taxes and violate embargoes, which is one of the main things that real smugglers do. They can try to smuggle contraband, using Stealth etc, but as they can't sell it in a Faction world without a Permit, they may as well forget the Stealth and just get a Permit.

Basically the current mechanics give the Smuggler a way of getting a restricted cargo to a destination without being detected, but that method is inferior to buying a Permit or Rank. And it still gives the Smuggler no special financial opportunities, so they have no special motivation for doing it.

Every embargo, every trade war, every taxation situation, should create an opportunity that Smugglers can exploit. I'm not sure about the right mechanics.

Maybe Smugglers have a skill (Stealth, or a new skill) that has a chance to

1. permit contraband to be sold without a Permit. possibly for a lower price but equally could be a higher price - criminals and terrorists will pay more than governments pay.
2. buy/sell even when an Exchange is closed or a Ban is in effect
3. avoid Rep penalties for violating an Embargo
4. avoid taxes or the consequences of taxes (buying and selling at better prices, with better supply and demand)

Or -

Black Market could be an option in the Spice Hall, opening up an alternate Exchange with different rules. It might even have different products to exchange (Drugs, Slaves, Narvidian Implants, Subversive Datapads, Role Playing Games... ). There would be a risk of arrest, deportation, fines, seizure of goods, etc.

[sgtcookie]

From what I gather, the black market would stock the same types of goods as the regular exchange, but at a higher price. This is because a spice hall black market would be the only place for criminals to buy supplies, as they would be banned from the exchange. The price increase would be double to quadruple the normal price, as the black markets know that they can only buy from them.

Another thing that black markets have going for them, is that during shortages and surpluses the amount in a black market does not change, instead extreme fluctuations in price occur. The fluctuation is allot higher than exchange fluctuations, 1000% being the norm and 5000% in rare cases, as the black market is the only place where people can buy what they need.

Spike's ideas about a black market go without saying, but to stop players from accessing an exchange as soon as they start a game, a system similar to rank should be used. This "licence" would allow the player to access the black market and, with higher levels, cheaper prices at the black market. The flavour for the licence could be a combination of bribing officials, paying off debts of the market bosses, anything that would not necessarily be considered "legal".

A level one licence would be available to everyone, and to access the higher levels the player needs to trade a certain amount of illegal or criminally useful items: electronics, artifacts, weapons, chemicals, records, anything that is taxed or banned on a planet, etc. This would mean that only hardcore smugglers would have a chance of reaching the higher levels.

A licence is valid for ALL black markets, so buying a licence at Javat prime would be usable at the Cadar home world.

Things that are sold at a black market can alter later events, if for example the player sells a metric shitonne of weapons at a black market, then a rumor might arise that an assassination attempt has been made on a prince.

Anyway, those are just a few ideas about how a black market should go.

[spike]

I'm not sure I agree with a Black Market licence as a thing you buy. That doesn't make sense in any real world situation I can think of. I think it's more of a skill, it's experience-based. But maybe there is some kind of underground or thieves guild you can join, so it's possible as a kind of "membership fee". I doubt that your access to Black Markets would be equal on all worlds, you might have to increase your level of trust slowly in specific places - basically a Reputation system for the underworld on each planet. Though that would be quite complicated to implement. For starters, a skill-based system would be easier to implement.

A galaxy-wide black market "licence" implies a galaxy-wide mafia. I doubt a criminal organisation would have greater cohesion that any of the 6 Factions - but it's possible.

On a price point of view, prices to Buy won't necessarily be higher though that is a common situation. If the black market exists for tax reasons, Buy and Sell prices will both be lower than the Exchange, otherwise the black market has no reason to exist. So it depends on the circumstances. For banned or illegal goods, yes, Buy prices should be higher. Sell prices might be higher, might be lower. Sell prices might be lower on the black market because the sellers are desperate to sell items that can't be sold at all at the government imposed "official" prices, or because a ban is preventing them from selling their goods.

[sgtcookie]

When I imagine a licence I think of a document that basically says "This person is trustworthy" and would be applicable to all black markets. The fee would be the costs of getting people to trust you, you do not "buy" a higher licence. You must perform tasks that make the black markets trust you more. And those tasks are often expensive.

I said make the buy/sell prices higher as a black market, as I explained, would be the only place for people to refuel or buy other items if they were banned from the exchange.

[spike]

So I pay $1000 to some guy on Javat Prime who gives me this document and I take it to some guy in Thulun, who reads the document and it says "Trust this guy, you can do illegal stuff with him, no problems. Signed, A. Nonymous smuggler, Javat Prime." And the Thulun guy goes "Sure, no problem, here's your 100 tons of Weapons buddy. "

Right.

[sgtcookie]

It's a bit more complex than that, most black markets have partnerships or co operations. This means that a metal smuggler diverts valuable metal shipments, for ship repair, to a weapon smith who then has a smuggler take them to a black market. The metal smuggler gets his metals by trading chemicals to bio terrorists. Those bio terrorists then trade the products they make from the chemicals to an explorer who uses them to make a part of a planet unsuitable, for a short period, for any sustained activity, that explorer can then clear out the artifacts and sell them on to an electronics manufacturer who sells these electronics to a spy. The spy would then trade the records to a blackmailer who has a large amount of water fuel. The blackmailer then sells the blackmail material to the player. The blackmailer alerts the spy for the players trustworthiness, who then alerts electronics manufacturer, who alerts the explorer, and so on until you get to the metal smuggler. That metal smuggler would trade with various weapon smiths who alert their business partners, who alert their customers, and so on and so forth until the player has been added to all black markets "trusted" list.

The licence simply proves the player is who he says he is.

That make more sense?

[spike]

That idea of a entering a network of trust makes a lot of sense, I buy that. I still don't think there would be a document as such. And possibly not even a fee. But some kind of initial Unlock is reasonable. With the Smuggler character class starting already Unlocked, already part of the Network.

Yeah you could basically have to do a kind of Smuggler Contract to a new planet before the Black Market gets opened to you on that planet. And you get the Smuggler Contract from a place where the Black Market is already open to you.

And if you're not a Smuggler, there would be some way to get that first Black Market unlock

Hey suddenly playing a Smuggler sounds a lot more interesting!

[sgtcookie]

Perhaps a smuggler officer would allow a non smuggler to get the inital contract from a spice hall?

[oldalchemist]

Who cares about any of this? I read this whole thread and it's all about black markets and shortages and documents on Javat?

I want to know where the planet of hardcore nudists is!

[sgtcookie]

It was located where depp space is now. It was blown up in 43 AE.

[oldalchemist]

Damn dirty narvidians! You blew it up! <shakes fist at naked statue of liberty buried in the sand>

[slayernz]

If the statue of liberty was Rychart in origin, would she/it be wearing a giant hat too?

[Kelvin Zero]

Some of what sgtcookie and spike have been talking about sounds a lot like a side quest of a main quest. It becomes a series of smuggling missions between planets in a quest for money with the big risk of getting killed if you are ever caught. It do it well, it would need NPC's made and sequences of events set up with side deviations if the player makes mistakes or goes off plan. Could be really exciting!

Another thing could be the danger of having the black markets on inhabited planets in the first place. You automatically have the risk of dodging the established authorities. What about using hidden asteroid bases, lost ship ruins, and wilderness encampments as black markets. These would not initially be on the maps but a Smuggler Captain would automatically know about a few and during the smuggling quest he would learn the locations of others. Captains with high tactics skill may be able to perform surveillance and find these bases. Then they could try to either attempt to gain favor with them and start smuggling. Or, if they are a goody two-shoes, attack and destroy it.

[oldalchemist]

Smuggling could be contracts to obtain and deliver X tons of a banned substance. You sell it at the crappy banned price, but get paid by the contract. Maybe even pick up that sort of contract at a world where the substance is banned.
Spice Hall Contract: "Hey can you get us 10 tons of vudka? It's banned here. It's worth $3500 within 17 space-weeks."
"Hey, clothing is banned here, can you get us 6 1/2-ton Rychart hats to cover our disgusting nudity? $2400 within 5 space-weeks. It's friggin' cold!"

Also, if the Rycharts believed in liberty, her hat would be freakin' huge. She'd keep smaller statues of liberty inside it and clean up pink snow.