Discussoin: SP cost as talent levels increase

[slayernz]

Okay, so we're still working with talent levels that don't go much higher than level 3, but my feel is that SP cost shouldn't increase as much (pretty much using the level 1 price, and multiplying it by the level increase).
As you increase the talent level, you are meant to becoming more proficient at the spell or talent. In other words, you are theoretically meant to be able to get more out of the spell with no increase in cost ... or much more out of the spell with only minimal increase in cost. If I were to be able to cast a firebolt at an enemy, over time I'd expect my firebolts would become more "explosive/powerful" as I master the inflections and gestures. If I put more of my energy (aka SP) into my casting, the effects should be significantly greater. Firebolt 2 shouldn't cost 2x the amount of SP that Firebolt 1 costs. If anything, at max, it should only be 1.5x the cost of Firebolt 1. At best, your damage for Firebolt shouldn't increase by much, but your cost of casting should drop, OR your AP consumption costs should drop. This means you should be able to cast more of the little balls of fire than you could before.

This also goes for other abilities, such as the Thief's farsensing ability, the Cleric's healing ability, or the Outlander's ability to crush walnuts between his fingers.

[fallen]

slayernz - I'd be interested in hearing other team member's thoughts. The increase of talent Power is your mastery of the ability or spell, and your ability to slam more power into it. That results in higher SP costs. AP reduction through Talent leveling will be a very rare thing and only fits for some talents like Precision Pick or Farsight. Talents like Firebolt will never see a reduction in AP.

If the SP cost of talents reduces as they increase in Power, all tactical consideration of which to use Talents when would go out the window, which I think will have a negative impact. I can see that we might temper the linearity of the SP increase for talents, but their SP costs will increase with each new point of Power. Advice is being added to the leveling screens for Intelligence about being careful how far you raise your Talents, i.e. to be sure you can still afford the SP cost of the new Power. I agree, if you level Firebolt 10 times back to back as you gain your first 10 talent points, you are in a ton of trouble ... that's a mistake (on purpose).

Throughout the game, the Wizard can reach a 10X increase to his SP, hitting 1,300 if he carries a magical staff and wears some gear that gives minor SP bonuses. With the right gear, he can really stretch. If his talent has increased 10X times, he will cast a similar number of Firebolts (more like Firebombs) as he did in the beginning of the game. If he choses to leave his talent at a lower Power, he will be able to cast many more, albeit weaker, Firebolts.

Would love other feedback!

[johndramey]

I can see what you are saying there fallen, but I think that there shouldn't be a flat (base SP) x (level) progression. The talent should definitely increase in cost, but if we make them too expensive then you start running the risk of requiring a super focused build to get the most out of a high level character. Most new people won't start with the same knowledge that we have of the game's mechanincs, and if you require too much of an SP investment in the higher level skills it could turn off some players.

What I suggest is a gradual curving of the cost, something like;

level 1 = 1x
level 2 = 1.5x
level 3 = 2x

etc, basically a 50% increase in the base cost per level. That way, a non-min/maxed character won't be really hurt by putting too many points in the talent. There will still be some risk with raising the skill too high, but it won't really be a "everything is fine" on level 4 to a "Jesus, I can only cast 4 firebolts" on level 5 kind of situation. There will be more advanced warning of problems with the talents becoming too costly.

Hand holding is usually a bad thing, but I tend to think most things should be built for people that a) don't read manuals and b) don't put a lot of forethought into their use.

Of course, I could be wrong!

[slayernz]

How about 50% of the cost of the increase before it ... ie Level 1 = 10, Level 2 = 15, Level 3 = 18 (17.5 rounded up), Level 4 = 20 (19.5 rounded up), then 21, 22, 23, 24, etc ...
For those not maths-inclined, the costs would be 5, 2.5, 1.5, 1, then 1 ongoing

[fallen]

I can agree that it is too steep right now and will down-adjust a bit to see how it feels on my end. The next update will include the ability to "look ahead" in the Talent's future which mitigates the "I didn't know it would cost so much!" complaint. Still, the tweaks I am looking to make will not change the fact that if you raise the Firebolt 5 times in a row, you will not be happy with your choice due SP cost -- that is a key balancing constraint.

[rabidbite]

I can see both sides of this discussion. My question is, at what level of difficulty should we be thinking about these balance issues? Normal? Hard? Brutal? Nightmare?

I don't expect fairness in Brutal or Nightmare. I expect ... exactly what a Deathkin gives me... freaking chills.

[slayernz]

fallen, improvements in terms of damage caused should fall off over the course of increased level-ups ... something like this

Talent Level	SP	Damage
1	10	8-16
2	15	16-34
3	18	24-40
4	20	28-42
5	21	30-43
6	22	31-44
7	23	32-44
7	23	32-44
8	24	33-45

[johndramey]

Nov 3, 2013 23:16:01 GMT -5 fallen said:

I can agree that it is too steep right now and will down-adjust a bit to see how it feels on my end. The next update will include the ability to "look ahead" in the Talent's future which mitigates the "I didn't know it would cost so much!" complaint. Still, the tweaks I am looking to make will not change the fact that if you raise the Firebolt 5 times in a row, you will not be happy with your choice due SP cost -- that is a key balancing constraint.

Awesome. Glad to see that you are planning on dropping it a bit, I'll trust your judgement. It's probably very hard to balance everything, and I don't envy you guys trying to come up with systems. Good luck!

[fallen]

slayernz - that result looks a lot less epic to me I'd rather have high SP costs for bigger bonuses, especially when the monsters are getting nastier by the level. That talent basically stops being good after Power 3. Why would I raise it to 10?

[fallen]

Nov 3, 2013 23:20:55 GMT -5 rabidbite said:

I can see both sides of this discussion. My question is, at what level of difficulty should we be thinking about these balance issues? Normal? Hard? Brutal? Nightmare?

I don't expect fairness in Brutal or Nightmare. I expect ... exactly what a Deathkin gives me... freaking chills.

rabidbite - SP is not actually effected by difficulty, nor are Talent power levels and stats. Now ... you'll need your Talents a lot more on Brutal and have a lot less potions, gold, and your battles will more drawn out and painful, etc ... anyway, just wanted to point out that SP cost / Talent stats have no difficulty connection.

[slayernz]

Nov 3, 2013 23:41:02 GMT -5 fallen said:

slayernz - that result looks a lot less epic to me I'd rather have high SP costs for bigger bonuses, especially when the monsters are getting nastier by the level. That talent basically stops being good after Power 3. Why would I raise it to 10?

I am okay with having a higher level before diminishing returns kick in but the reason why I think there should be diminishing returns is that you shouldn't be casting cantrip spells at a level 40 Dragon no matter how skilled you are at it. You should be learning and using bigger and more powerful spells like immolation

[evmaker]

Nov 4, 2013 0:00:56 GMT -5 slayernz said:

I am okay with having a higher level before diminishing returns kick in but the reason why I think there should be diminishing returns is that you shouldn't be casting cantrip spells at a level 40 Dragon no matter how skilled you are at it. You should be learning and using bigger and more powerful spells like immolation

Well fireball is more then just a cantrip spell per se, its his main attack. Just like the others buying a new better weapon except his uses spirit and costs talent points to get, the other spells like immolation are the additional spells to bring in the bigger guns if needed like warrior using crushing strike instead of just striking.

[fallen]

evmaker - that is also my take on it. Firebolt will be a valid attack till the end of the game if you choose to continue to increase its Talent Power, just like Crushing Blow. There will be a lot of competing options and other attack Talents you could raise, but if you want the sniper Wizard, then you do!

[reubenjohn]

I agree that the current costs seem a bit high. However, I think the increase every level is a definite must. It's hard to get a good idea of what our actual HP/SP pools and damage output will be this early in the game. Fallen shared in the Melee Talents discussion thread that end game weapons will be doing 150-400 damage. The main attack of the wizard would need to scale to be in line with this otherwise they would become useless.

I look at increased SP with spell levels less as the caster becoming more proficient at their incantation but rather being more proficient at drawing in power. Casting a fireball involves pulling in enough magic from inside yourself to create a little puff of fire (at level 1) that you throw at your foe. If you want to throw a big blazing ball of fire, you need substantially more magic to create that.

The other side of improving would be more accurate incantation which would be the SP reduction end... If the spell itself remains the same incantation wise, I would only see it being practical to have a 1 or 2 time drop in SP futher down the levels. There's only so much you can do to make the spell easier and making it faster would relate more to AP reduction rather than SP.

[slayernz]

What about this then ... have the ability to select the power level of the spell you are casting? That is, if you have trained up to FB4, have the ability to cast FB1, FB2, FB3, or FB4. Why? You might have a foe that is down to the last 10HP, but nobody else has moves left except ole Shifty Eyes. Instead of sending a FB4 to the target (wasting probably 24 or even 32 SP), you might want to cast FB2 and save the magic for other enemies.

I agree now that Spell damage should not plateau (or have diminished returns per level), but the relative casting cost increase per level should definitely do so.