Team Crimson Rain

[fallen]

John Robinson - a big +1 for the great analysis!

[John Robinson]

fallen

Thank You always a relief to know my eyestrain is paying off haha.  

I won't tell Balgair he is busy framing a new painting he has acquired for an esteemed Cleric from the most famous (a genious when sober) Artist in the Underdeep.  

[John Robinson]

 ** Bulletin Important Kyera Tweak for Crimson Rain **

If you have not reached Level 22 yet.  Change +1 Conjuration in Levels 22 and 23 to Invocation to bring it up to 16.  

Conjuration already covers the 9 square block and Warders Shield already has a long duration (you can add more later).

[mrsarfa]

Nov 7, 2014 0:25:55 GMT -5 John Robinson said:

Combat 1 using a single 1-AP Blade. My Selen is Level 20 at 19 she had reached her goal of Punishing Blades(6) +10 Accuracy, -18 Damage, -22 Armor, no bonus damage cost 14-SP

Attack with Frenzied Blows(5) before soak +8 Accuracy, +15 damage, 8% Critical 6-SP, 19-65 Damage (Includes +12 H Damage gear).
Melee Accuracy(8) + Wep(4) + Dex(12) + Bonus(5).
Estimated minimum damage from Critical hit before soak = (19 x 2) = 38.  Estimated Maximum before soak = (65 x 3) = 195.

 Combat 2 using Dual Wielding 1-AP Blades. Primary Hand: Scything Blade 1-AP, 4 Accuracy, 1 Parry, 19-36 Damage.  Off Hand: Sai Blade 1-AP, 3 Accuracy, 4 Parry, 21-24 Damage.
 
Attack with Frenzied Blows(5) before soak +8 Accuracy, +15 damage, 14% Critical 6-SP, 39-89 Damage (Includes +12 H Damage gear). Melee Accuracy(8) + Wep(4) + Dex(12) + Bonus(5).
Estimated minimum damage from Critical hit before soak = (39 x 2) = 78. Estimated Maximum before soak = (89 x 3) = 267. Note: In some situations I have seen hits of up to 220 after soak!

This will continue to rise as she nears her goal of Frenzied Blows(7), and as Dance of Shadows increases it will add an even higher chance for a critical hit to occur (All Crits Stack).  For the first 23 levels you will be able to attack with Frenzied Blows constantly because of it's low SP cost.  After Level 23 your SP should have grown naturally or you have acquired +SP gear to support the extra +4 SP Frenzied Blows(7) will require. 

John Robinson - thanks for the super-thorough analysis. Definitely worthy of a +1.  There are two things I still don't understand and one is dependent upon the other.

1) Why does dual-wielding increase the Frenzied Blows crit chance from 8% to 14%?
2) If dual-wielding really does increase the crit chance, then this may not apply, but since the damage from the dual-wielding Frenzied Blows strike (39-89 dmg) is less than double the damage of the single blade strike  (19-65 dmg) except at the lowest dice roll, doesn't getting two strikes with a single blade, on average, out-damage getting one strike with two blades? This is especially true if you think that a single blade yields 6 FB per enemy (I'm assuming the first attack was with Punishing Blades to reduce armor), but dual wielding yields only 2.5 FB attacks per enemy, so you are actually getting more than twice the number of FB attacks with only a single blade than with two.

Once again, thanks so much for your help and valuable insight and great job with the Crimson Rain build. I'm having a blast with it. 

[John Robinson]

mrsarfa

Hi sorry for the delay.  I just spent about 4 hours researching and constructing a clear detailed answer to your questions I was just entering the final sentences.  With a single accidental click the software thought I was trying to insert an attachment or some other problem.  Even though I had saved the work earlier for some reason the entire post got deleted.  So I really don't have the energy to do it all over again, maybe sometime in the future.

The Selen plan has undergone some modifications since it was first published and I was already playing my current game when v2.2.41 came out so my printout here at home looks like a real mess.
In the Crimson Rain thread I will create a new Selen Plan post containing my tweaks and the v2.2.41 changes so you can see what she looks like now.

Crimson Rain is just a plan to use the characters in a certain way and I certainly encourage the creativity of everyone in modding it that's a big part of the fun. When you finish I'm really looking forward to reading the secrets of success used by the Selen "Brutal Master" .

 In this team Selen is my best effort to design a dual weapon Melee Killer her Talent plan relies on it in accordance with my madcap imagination. If I were using a single blade my design would look allot different and tailored for the Off Tank mission.

In the past I thought it would be so cool to get massive kills with a 7 attack 1-AP blade, but for me it didn't work out as well. I prefer 1 shot kills whenever possible. There is a great thread discussing the pros and cons of using 2-H weapons versus 1-H weapons and if I find it I'll come back and insert the link.  Your questions did give me an idea of how a 1-H Off Tank could be really good.  I would allocate the 17 talents something like this, 7 in DoS to get the +3-MP, add Critical % and it's stealth bonus to insure first round combat initiative. Then 6 points in Punishing Blades(6) as an Off Tank Punishing Blades is the primary attack to support the group so the high SP expenditure is acceptable. With the remaining 4 points, I would add 1 to Quicksilver Defense(1) and 3 to Frienzied Blows(4). Then cram on all the +Accuracy gear I could find. I might even consider rearranging the Off Tank build to take Punishing Blades to 7 or 8 but that's for another post.

Happy Hunting Fellow Adventurer 

[mrsarfa]

Thank you, John Robinson! So sorry to hear about your computer woes.
FYI, my activity feed told me that you mentioned me in a post here that looks like it may be your missing post.

Anyway, thanks again for all your help.

[John Robinson]

mrsarfa

  Thank You!  When the smoke cleared I was looking at a blank screen.  I'm so glad the first part of it survived and wouldn't have know if you hadn't pointed it out.  That was a outline of
a very early version and quite a bit is missing, then there was editing to chop out things that didn't matter.  I am amazed to see anything at all.

Big Thank You +1 K 

I'm really enjoying exploring the 1 vs 2 blade Selen build ideas with you.  She reached level 22 since I was working on it so there is quite a bit of new stuff to talk about, even more so with Chapter 3 release last night.  So I hope to return to return to the post and finish it down the road.

[mrsarfa]

John Robinson, you're very welcome. Thank YOU again.

I'm torn myself between the 1 blade/2 blade question. I absolutely understand where you are coming from in terms of thinking of her build around the idea of high-damage single hits (one shot, one kill), but, at the same, time, the math on paper makes it seem like a single 1AP blade may yield more raw damage. I say "may" because the mystery factor is the target's soak (toughness & armor). As the game progresses, my guess is that a single 1AP blade becomes less viable because the target's soak increases to the point where the damage reduction cancels out all but the highest damage rolls, while dual-wielding wouldn't have this problem. This could be partially mitigated through the use of lots of +dmg and +crit gear, but in the end, I suspect that dual-wielding becomes necessary.

[CdrPlatypus]

mrsarfa I really like dual wielding on Selen because it increases the minimum dmg of your attack, it looks awesome, and you can mix and match blades to get the best stats

[John Robinson]

Thought it was time to provide a short update on how Team Crimson Rain is getting along.  Everybody is level 23 having finished Gholla and now 2 levels deep in the Cultist Underground.

Just a few highlights the details will be in the aftermath and there have been some changes in the plan but the design goals have remained the same.  Stats include all active buffs and gear.

Selen Lvl 23 has Hp-571 SP-348 Toughness-9  She has reached  all of her goals except Dance of Shadows(4) I have opted for Quick Silver(1) and will reach DoS(4) at Lvl 25.
She has been successful on defense as well as attack. From there it is time to take Dance of Shadows up to 10 and toss in more QsD if needed.  She is the dancer of death to the music of Ryethin.

Punishing Blades(6) -18 Armor, -18 damage +10 Accuracy cost 2-AP, 14-SP.  Dual Wielding for 43-76 damage 6% Critical +12 Holy damage.
Accuracy = 10 +Wep(7) +Blades(16) +Dex(13) +Bonus(5)

Frenzied Blows(7) 2-AP 10-SP. Dual Wielding 43-100 damage 16% Critical +12 Holy damage.  Accuracy = 11 + Wep(7) +Blades(16) +Dex(13) +Bonus(5)

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Vraes Lvl 23 Hp-748 SP-202 Toughness-15 Armor-105 Con-12 Str-10 He is performing even better than expected the Shield 1-H hammer death by a thousand cuts design is working.
Phalanx Shield was a gamble that really paid off so Iv'e invested more points than the plan called for he is at Phalanx(9) and I'm taking it to 10.  After that will probably start adding talent points to Natural Mastery.  Dump a few more attributes into Str and Con.

With Phalanx(9) gear and buffs Melee Defense = Parry(10) +Parry Bonus(14) +Hammers(14) +Dodge(10)  With armor 105 not to shabby ehh?
Savage Sweep(5) Wielding Clawed Warhammer 53-111 damage Accuracy = 8 +Wep(5) +Hammer(14) +Str(10) +Bonus(3)

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Vincent Lvel 23 Hp-413 SP-888 He has reached his Flash Freeze(6) goal and is one point away from his Frigid Air(10) goal.  Charged Speed(2) provides +2 MP crucial to his build.
After that I may add more Charged Speed or begin with Thundering Blades to raise party accuracy, I will be giving a real hard look at what to do next.
Flash Freeze(6) -2AP -7 Dodge 9 target block and Frigid Air(9) now a 5x5 Cloud -11 Ranged Accuracy -56 all enemy damage makes this the best most effective group I have ever designed.
Note one more point in Frigid Air will take down enemy damage by a whopping -72

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Kyera Lvl 23 Hp-358 SP-600 +1 Mp boots any gear that provides +1 Mp is an absolute must for Kyera to perform at her best.  She has reached her Holy Retribution(4) and Banishment(5) goals, currently she has Warders Shield(4) and is on her way to making it 10.  I have packed on every bit of +Accuracy gear I can find for her and thanks to the new v3.1.1 she is fantastic with her spell attacks! For creatures weak to Holy damage the blinding light of Myshana turns them to ash carried by the cavern winds.

Holy Retribution(4) 3-AP 18-SP Causes 25-97 holy damage +26 Lighting +16 Earth damage. Accuracy = 10 +Invocation(16) +Knowledge(7) +Bonus(13).  Everyday Workhorse.
Then the things get really sweet.
Banishment(5) 9 Target Block 4-AP 52-SP Attack causes 45-138 Holy damage +26 Lighting +16 Earth.  Accuracy = 16 +Invocation(16) +Knowledge(7) +Bonus(13) 
Hopefully someday I can get a piece of gear that includes +Holy Damage without giving up Ranged Accuracy which will narrow the damage range and make it more effective.

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*Note I haven't made up my mind yet to publish the updated Crimson Rain Character leveling plan here or in the Aftermath thread I plan to post after Chapter 2 is completed, it is also tempting to keep going until Chapter 3 EP-1 has been completed by this group.  Anybody have any preferences?

I'm really blown away by all the great things fellow players are doing with this group and thanks for all the positive feed back! 





 

[Zhivago]

Great write up! What difficulty are you playing? Any insight in terms of Nightmare Ironman viability? Has your Selen been an adequate off-tank? Cheers!

[John Robinson]

Zhivago

A fulcrum placed in the right position will lift the heaviest of stones.  A well designed group will successfully cross difficulty levels.

I had so hoped to not embarrass myself with such a bold axiom, what is really gratifying is seeing others using it on much higher difficulties with success. I play all my builds on Easy or Normal difficulty. I have allot of fun and I get to do allot of madcap experimenting before publishing a plan.  It's a safe bet anybody using this plan plays at a higher level than I do haha

I'm astonished that mrsarfa is playing this on Brutal you can read his post in this thread and I think En1gma is also way up there.  Both of these guys are excellent players and I have learned allot from their posts,  (My memory is a little foggy so please anybody forgive if I forgot to mention you using Crimson Rain I didn't want to exit the post too look them up).
The design is very flexible.  Selen is my favorite and I can't think of a bad design for her, what really counts is the group synergy. 

In Crimson Rain she is not designed to be an Off-Tank she is in fact the main Melee-Killer of the group dual wielding a pair of exceptional blades, although all the characters are at level 23 she runs around 2,000 experience points ahead of the group. Selen's last name is Crithits (Critical hits). Her very long range goal is Dance of Shadows(10).  She has killed every main boss in the game so far.  This would be impossible without the interlocking talents of the group.  The plan is a slow build that gets stronger over time, and care is taken in timing when a character gets a talent that will intersect and augment another dependent on when a level is reached.  I can say Vincent is the mainspring of this watch.

Thanks for having a look and the your kind words

(I hope Andrew and Cory aren't looking down into their glowing screens in a darkened room with an evil chuckle Rabiel would be proud of "Wait til you get to Chapter 3 bright boy!") 

[Zhivago]

John Robinson

Well said and thanks for the reply. I think I'll take it for a Nightmare spin and give you another data point off which to evaluate and potentially fine tune your build. Cheers!

[En1gma]

I too play my games on normal. I have made so many builds since day One and still have yet to set foot in the Cultist Temple. My newest group Kinetic Energy is set to be my furthest group yet, and one I hope to finish the game with... Someday.

[CdrPlatypus]

John Robinson I think I'll jump on the band wagon and give your group a spin on nightmare as well. I've been looking for a new group to play with after my last group bit the dust and the heavy CC and holy dmg is looking attractive.