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Post by John Robinson on Aug 20, 2014 18:42:04 GMT -5
Balgair.. Good to hear from you my old friend, glad you arrived safely in Rivenfield. There is no need to beg for forgiveness old friend, as there is nothing to forgive  women & wine can effect a man that way. Take Care & Safe Travels my friend Balgair Baron Tazzer Baron Tazzer Balgair believes the true power of a Baron lies not in force of arms and the chopping block, but in mercy and justice. You are indeed powerful. I have found some most interesting things to someday if fate allows present as gifts. There are also rumors of a library containing valuable maps gathered by a brilliant sage known as contributor. Perhaps copies may be obtained. A Baron's friendship is a great treasure. An honor to stand in that company. Many thanks Your humble servant, Balgair |
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Post by En1gma on Aug 20, 2014 18:47:59 GMT -5
It seems our lord Balgair has forgotten how to spell his own name! Prithee give the wine a rest when you put quill to parchment, good sir!
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Post by John Robinson on Aug 20, 2014 18:59:41 GMT -5
It seems our lord Balgair has forgotten how to spell his own name! Prithee give the wine a rest when you put quill to parchment, good sir!  Got me laughing on that one, thanks just edited. Seems only fair after misspelling the Baron's. That is really funny! Thanks for the catch, on second thought maybe I should go back in and restore the error. Your'e the best +1K |
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Post by CdrPlatypus on Aug 20, 2014 21:53:35 GMT -5
John Robinson I might consider dropping frigid air in favor of thundering blades after flash freeze 6 for the plus accuracy. With vraes running phalanx shield I think its overkill IMHO and I would take vraes straight to constitution 16. Extra Health and accuracy are the main tweaks for higher difficulties, but your overall group concepts are always really solid and well thought out along with your blow by blow lvl up planning. Impressive dedication to detail.
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Post by John Robinson on Aug 21, 2014 13:26:38 GMT -5
John Robinson I might consider dropping frigid air in favor of thundering blades after flash freeze 6 for the plus accuracy. With vraes running phalanx shield I think its overkill IMHO and I would take vraes straight to constitution 16. Extra Health and accuracy are the main tweaks for higher difficulties, but your overall group concepts are always really solid and well thought out along with your blow by blow lvl up planning. Impressive dedication to detail. The Frigid Air vs Thundering Blades is definitely something that I mulled over, it was a tough decision. The Phalanx Shield is a big experiment just to see what happens with the new ranged auto block so yeah it is overkill for this stage of the game.In a past experiment I had it up to 7 with good results before the new auto block, I maybe too curious for my own good. Vraes Constitution also a tough choice. I've been peaking at the iron man thread, and I am seeing a definite trend. With his toughness factor of 1.25 a Con(16) will result in Toughness(20), the current design will only get to Toughness(15). You are right about one thing, there is no such thing as too much HP for Vraes, I'm hoping Phalanx(8)combined with Frigid Air(9) will mitigate the damage he takes. Looking at some of the dice crunching I'm beginning to form the opinion the combat success maybe more dependent on standard dice vs strong dice because the pool for standard is so much larger so things like Thundering Blades and Natural Mastery can tip the balance in your favor. On the other hand I'm also testing Selen's strong dice in particular to see just how well it does. Overall I keep trying to look way down the road with these guys asking myself what will happen to them in EP3/4. This group will be the base for a Steam Guide so I want to report on the good with the less successful performance of the plan. If they slam into a brick wall with death counts so high I can't continue that's a win too (lol). Thanks for the great advice! +1k |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2014 19:11:31 GMT -5
John Robinson My Crimson Rain group just left it's first meeting with Balgair and headed back to Red Hill with no deaths yet. I wanted to comment a little on the balancing side of things with the 2.2.41 changes and just some feedback in general. In the run up to the Shaman, I was still on Myshana's Tears 2. I was feeling the lack of MT 3 (since that talent point got bumped to lvl 12) as I felt like Kyera was tied down too much in healing and not Holy Retribution. I didn't really notice the shifted talent point with any of the other characters. Kyera is so effective with Holy Retribution 4. I can't wait until Banishment! Holy damage really is where it's at for so many enemies and the thought of AoE Holy damage is just awesome. Vincent has been the hardest to stick to the plan on but I've done it so far. I'm very much looking forward to Flash Freeze 6 with -2 AP and block AoE. The hardest part of sticking to the plan with him is that so often there's just nothing for him to do. Sometimes I'm inefficiently blasting one enemy with Flash Freeze since he has so much SP and everyone else is max cursed from him. I ended up putting a 3 AP 1 handed sword on him until the Shaman and he was remarkably effective! Every so often he could dart in and do some significant damage without putting himself in danger. This was usually against targets that were softened up with all the team's curses. I also agree that charged speed is so, so useful for him. Especially on the front end of a fight he needs to be right behind Vraes and Selen. Vraes is a beast. The more experience I have with this game, the more convinced I am that there's no wrong way to build him. fallen said it best one time when he commented that Kincaid is fun to play but he always feels safe with Vraes. Nothing says I'm going to the top of a hardcore ladder like a big cuddly berserker! Selen is also right on schedule. Currently she's about 600-700 XP above everyone. The only real difference is that I've been running her for a while with a 1 AP light blade and 2 AP sword combo. I've really liked this for her. If I end up with 5 AP, I still get 3 attacks and the 3 AP attacks have some great damage. I imagine that I'll come back to dual 1 AP blades once to the advanced siege camp or after the Baron when they get a little better, but just wanted to throw in my two cents. Overall, I'm loving this group and it doesn't hurt that I'm now posting new high scores on the hard ironman ladders. Thanks for all your work on testing this group and going to the work putting them up here and working on the Steam guide!
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Post by fallen on Nov 1, 2014 19:25:55 GMT -5
I think the thing that makes me happiest about Heroes of Steel is listening to all of you talk about your amazing groups |
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Post by John Robinson on Nov 2, 2014 16:47:07 GMT -5
@rearick
Definitely agree with your sharp eyed analysis. My group has reached level 18 having returned from the Talia Island quest. Welcome to another almost unbearably long post from
yours truly.
Kyera. Has always been the most difficult for me to plan. At level 25 you have a total of 17 talents. The problem is she has "overhead cost of living" minimum talent requirements that
both slow down her development and reduce the number she has available from 17 to 13. What do I mean? Purifying Breeze(1) no choice you must have it and get it at level 6 or suffer
curses until you do. Enemy curses (so far) are designed to strip characters of strong defense dice (parry, dodge) for a prolonged duration, and our diabolical developers love to cast them when enemy infantry, archers, and elemental attacks will occur on the next round. I don't think relying entirely on curse removing scrolls is a good idea. Myshana's Tears(3) is the minimum healing requirement to get through the game in relative safety and often used to boost hp when the potion used wasn't enough. Biting the bullet to get Holy Retribution(4) by level 9 for me is a must. I also switch to a staff that provides extra sp as soon as I can find one. (The first one goes to Vincent). The important thing to remember when using Holy Retribution or Banishment is to try and hit the targets with Vincent's Flash Freeze(6) first, in this case I'm not talking about the -2 AP it's the -7 dodge to strip their spell defense. As I reach higher levels my Kyera builds spend allot less time healing and allot more time attacking because the group as a whole is killing higher quantities and killing them more quickly thus reducing the damage done to the group.
Vincent. To get to level 14 is hard work but that is his sweet victory spot and it only keeps getting better. It often may seem like he doesn't have allot to due but that will change in the Cultist temple. I have noticed that if you can drop one of those spiders that spawns to 1AP they will not spawn another spider. There are deadly bosses with 4 AP with Flash(6) and Kyera Ethereal(1) that will take the toughest boss down to 1 AP and your group can annihilate it. Any creature that has been tagged with Frigid Air combined with Selen's Punishing Blades will do allot less damage when they score a hit. I believe Vincent is the backbone of this group that allows them to be so effective as a team. I like to move away from thinking his curses are just supporting the group but are in fact the deadliest attacks in the game. You have made a wise choice in bumping his move AP as noted in Vraes comment.
Vraes Phalanx Shield at last he can Charge! I am really enjoying using him to illuminate targets hiding in the shadows. When the group comes under fire he can charge way ahead of the group exposing more of the map, if necessary Selen can then move forward a little and cast sly look to extend or light up more of the battle field beyond Vraes field of view. Now Kyera and Vincent have a clear view of all of the targets looking for clumped enemies who have not made their first maneuver yet. Like so many others I am enjoying him being able to charge into a group forcing them to form a tight group around him allowing for more effective AoE attacks. This is why it is important to get Vincent higher mp so he can move forward and bring targets within a range of 6 then duck out of range again.
Selen. You are doing great! I have also tried allot of weapon combos 2AP +1AP weapons. But I always come back to 2 1AP blades. I prefer a pair of Scything Blades 4Ac 1P 19-36 dmg.
She is currently at Frenzied Blades(4) including extra equipment gets 39-86 dmg +9% Crit 12 Holy. Accuracy = 7 + Wep(4) + Blades(16) + Dex(11) + Bonus(5)
She Leads with Punishing Blades(5) with significant damage and the target's armor has already been reduced by 18 before the first frenzied blows slams into it.
The tricky part about using swords is they often have a higher accuracy than 1AP blades, so you can end up having your attacks rely on strength for accuracy instead of dexterity.
I have to exercise some self control when speaking about the wonders of Selen or this section will be as long as the entire post.
Excellent Work and a tip of the hat +1 K
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 19:25:55 GMT -5
Selen. The tricky part about using swords is they often have a higher accuracy than 1AP blades, so you can end up having your attacks rely on strength for accuracy instead of dexterity. Just wanted to clarify on the sword and light blade combo. I equip the 1 AP light blade in the primary spot and the sword in the off hand. This allows me to take advantage of both the higher accuracy of the sword and use my DEX modifier on the attack since the primary weapon affects this. Just checked this on my Kindle HDX and if it's a bug I don't want it fixed! I haven't paid attention when I'm down to lower than 3 AP to look at my accuracy to see if it's dropping down to my primary weapon, but I'll keep an eye out. I'll probably still go back to the dual wield light blades when I get some better options but Lukai's sword is too good at this point for me to just sell for cash. |
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Post by fallen on Nov 2, 2014 19:27:08 GMT -5
@rearick - it is not a bug, it is a tactical advantage you can exploit  The primary weapon determines the Attribute used. |
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Post by John Robinson on Nov 2, 2014 23:14:40 GMT -5
@rearick fallenThanks guys momentary abend during fore-brain compile. Forgot about the primary hand rule (again!). |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2014 23:52:37 GMT -5
Just polished off the Baron with Crimson Rain on Hard. At 123 million, it's enough to take the top spot on the Amazon ironman ladder.
Such an amazing group! You were right about level 14 being the sweet spot for Vincent. Since then, he's just gotten better and better and the whole group has coalesced around him. Having a massive SP reservoir and using it for -2 AP in block? Add in -7 Dodge? Yes sir, may I have another.
Also, switched Selen back to light blades. You were right about that too: "more hits, more crits" One-shotting orcin warboys is a good time for anyone. Many turns I would find myself out of optimal position for the next turn because Selen was killing things too quickly. #firstworldproblems
Vraes with Phalanx Shield is just crazy good. I don't think I'll ever build him without it again. Crazy. Good.
As an aside on Kyera, I picked up a +1 MP ring in Red Hill. Boom.
I had the easiest time I've ever experienced with the big Red Hill fights. I'll just mention Groth here for others who drop by. In the past, I've kited his starting mobs well back into the tunnel so that by the time Groth comes out, I still have quite a few enemies from previous waves. This time I was able to so effectively neutralize the damage coming in that I was able to chew through everything they threw at me and just keep moving forward into it. Vincent and Vraes kept incoming damage minimized and Selen and Kyera demolished everything behind Vraes' wall. So much fun!
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Post by John Robinson on Nov 4, 2014 3:37:05 GMT -5
@rearick Edited to correct earlier post 11/4/14 11:55 Absolutely Fantastic! Top of the Amazon Leaderboard Congratulations Yep you are dead right, because Conjuration(10) at Level 14 Vincent covers the whole 9 square block of targets when using Flash Freeze(6). Conjuration plays another critical long range goal in the Vincent Build. We want to get to Conjuration(13) because when Vincent reaches level 21 Frigid Air will be rank 6 converting coverage from a 9 block to a 5x5 Cloud shaped AoE and you need conjur(13) to cover all the targets in the cloud. I've noticed some of the monsters are learning to space themselves to make fewer of them get hit in the block shape, a cloud should be more difficult to elude. I recommend you tweak the plan at level 19 and reduce Lore by 1 point and increase Conjuration by 1 point instead so you will be ready to use the full Frigid Air coverage.
I should have thought of it sooner and will be doing it with my team. This build ends at level 25 but the plan is to take Frigid Air all the way to 10.We are definitely on the same page Kyera really comes alive once she gets that +1 MP ring, and I never give it up once found. If you are lucky to find another +1 mp ring you can get even more performance from Vincent if he can use it. But it helps anybody in the party who has a free equipment slot. Speed Kills. What is best in life? Crush your enemies see them flee before you, and hear the lamentations of the Shaman. I have never had so much fun fighting forward instead of falling back and looking for cover. Thank you, thank you, thank you Cory Trese and fallen for the best RPG I've ever played! You may already know this and I'm afraid to mention it because fallen and Cory Trese read these and I hope it doesn't get tweaked to stop this tactic. (a.k.a Devilish Developers lol) Groth always sends one of his sub chiefs with each wave of monsters assaulting us. Try not to kill the sub chief early, take out as many of his troops as possible because the next wave lead by the next chief will not charge to attack until you kill the first one. I usually drop the sub chiefs AP to one, weaken his HP and when his troops are mostly killed finish him off. You are running this group perfectly! I'm thrilled it is working at higher difficulty levels than I play. Way to go!! |
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Post by mrsarfa on Nov 6, 2014 14:15:57 GMT -5
John Robinson - Awesome group. Just started a new game on Brutal and loving them so far. I'm still only in Krellin Deeps, but it's scary how easily I'm tearing through groups of ratkin. Selen is constantly running low on SP, since I just got PB3 and I use it on almost every enemy we meet. I've taken to using her basic attacks for her follow-up shots after PB to save on SP, but she usually only lasts through two or three battles before needing to recharge. If it weren't for that, though, I could easily see this group stringing four or five battles back to back without needing to camp. One question, if I may: since more hits is more crits (a philosophy that I wholeheartedly agree with and that I've used in a different group build of my own), why not just keep Selen with a single 1AP blade? Seven attacks per round means, on average, Selen is going to crit at least once per round and the armor mitigation from PB should allow her to do decent damage on each hit, even without two blades. Thoughts? Thanks! Once again, great job on the group!
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Post by John Robinson on Nov 7, 2014 0:25:55 GMT -5
mrsarfa Fantastic! Congrats on running "Crimson Rain" on Brutal, it really validates the plan, Thank You big +1 k | A fulcrum placed in the right position will lift the heaviest of stones. A well designed group will successfully cross difficulty levels. |
Great Questions, Selen is my favorite and Balgair will crawl on his knees just to peak through a keyhole to get a glimpse of her. All my team designs include Selen and I've spent hundreds of hours playing her, researching strengths and weakness and experimenting with different designs. I have many different teams printed out here at home. Some games I just play until killing the Ratkin Shaman and start another test. I've published an earlier group called Blade Muse which was very successful. One called Ice Fugue is a dismal failure and I do not recommend using it. So far at level 20 "Crimson Rain" has been risky but the best design. Buckle your seat-belt so when you read this painfully long post, can't take it anymore, and start screaming at least you won't fall out of your chair. This is how I have explained Selen to myself.Selen Melee Killer or Off Tank? When using a single 1AP blade she can attack 7 times cursing as many opponents as possible then she is an Off Tank.
When dual wielding 2-1AP blades attacking 3 or 4 times per round she is the front line Melee Killer.
Currently Selen is at Level 20 and the rest of the team is at Level 19. More hits equals more Crits but Speed Kills. How fast can she move and what is the smallest number of hits does it take to kill an opponent? My conclusion is Selen should always be a front line Melee Killer not an Off Tank. Vincent weakens the opponents, Vraes holds them by the nose and Selen kicks them in the rear, Kyera weakens or preferably kills with Holy Damage. Here is my ideal combat situation. Thanks to the new improved Phalanx Shield Vraes charges to pin as many enemies as possible (if adjacent to a Shaman they will not throw curses). Vincent weakens the enemy with Flash Freeze and Frigid Air. Selen dual wielding swoops in always leading with Punishing Blades followed by Frenzied Blows. She will often strike an enemy on Vraes flank with Punishing Blades to make it easier for him to score hits before launching her own main attack. Kyera is the good time girl anytime is the right time for divine slam dancing.
SP Cost Always high but you will actually spend allot more SP using her as an Off Tank and less if you use her as a Melee Killer (her true destiny). In this plan Punishing Blades(6) is the goal and it is going to cost you 14-SP every time you use it. By the time Selen reaches Level 20 she will be using Frenzied Blows(5) for a cost of 6-SP always use this never a standard blade attack. The plan goal for Frenzied Blows(7) Costs 10-Sp when she reaches Level 23 and is devastating so you will use it less often save SP in the long run and must use it every time you attack or the plan is a bust. The final long term goals (Chapter 3 and 4) after Level 23 she will alternate 2 points to Dance of Shadows(10) with 1 point to Quicksilver Defense(10) until the goals are reached. Critical Hits and Melee Damage. Critical Hits fallen defines as 150% to 300% times damage. 2 blades will always do more regular damage than 1. I did not run these figures through the "Combat Mechanics" filter for fine detail I have a google doc full of forum notes that gives me a migraine even thinking about it. Combat 1 using a single 1-AP Blade. My Selen is Level 20 at 19 she had reached her goal of Punishing Blades(6) +10 Accuracy, -18 Damage, -22 Armor, no bonus damage cost 14-SP
As an Off Tank her main goal is to use her curse attack if she manages to score 7 hits the SP cost equals 98-SP. She will use Frenzied Blows(5) as her secondary attack for 6-SP per use seven of those equals 42-SP overall cheap and should be used. If you are in a prolonged battle you will need SP potions or at the very least back to camp for a recharge because she carries the overhead of opening locks, disarming traps, casting Dance of Shadows(3), and using Sly Look(1) to scout ahead.
In all the following examples the primary hand will use a Scything Blade 1-AP, 4 Accuracy, 1 Parry, 19-36 Damage.
With her bonus equipment, stats, talents and other bonuses here is what her attack looks like.
To keep the math simple for my fevered mind I will use 200% of damage for my minimum critical calculations.
Attack with Punishing Blades(6) before soak +10 Accuracy, -18 Dmg, -22 Armor, 19-50 Damage (Includes +12 H Damage gear), 6% Critical 14-SP. Melee Accuracy(10) + Wep(4) + Dex(12) + Bonus(5) Estimated minimum damage from Critical hit before soak = (19 x 2) = 38. Estimated Maximum (50 x 3) = 150 Attack with Frenzied Blows(5) before soak +8 Accuracy, +15 damage, 8% Critical 6-SP, 19-65 Damage (Includes +12 H Damage gear). Melee Accuracy(8) + Wep(4) + Dex(12) + Bonus(5). Estimated minimum damage from Critical hit before soak = (19 x 2) = 38. Estimated Maximum before soak = (65 x 3) = 195. Combat 2 using Dual Wielding 1-AP Blades. Primary Hand: Scything Blade 1-AP, 4 Accuracy, 1 Parry, 19-36 Damage. Off Hand: Sai Blade 1-AP, 3 Accuracy, 4 Parry, 21-24 Damage.
Food for Thought. The Primary uses a high accuracy with a wider damage range. The off hand Sai Blade provides Selen with a much needed +4 parry that a single effective blade could not. It will be a long time until Kyera can raise Warders Shield to a high rank and even longer for Selen to begin putting points into Quick Silver Defense. The Sai Blade has a narrow damage range so when combined with the wider range Scything Blade provides more consistent damage. DROPS: You will often find a superior weapon of the same type not for sale in shops like a better Sai Blade than the one you currently carry, nice to have that second hand to put it in.
Again remember this includes all bonuses from gear.
Attack with Punishing Blades(6) before soak +10 Accuracy, -18 Dmg, -22 Armor, 39-74 Damage (Includes +12 H Damage gear), 6% Critical 14-SP.
Melee Accuracy(10) + Wep(4) + Dex(12) + Bonus(5)
Estimated minimum damage from Critical hit before soak = (39 x 2) = 78. Estimated Maximum before soak (74 x 3) = 222.
Attack with Frenzied Blows(5) before soak +8 Accuracy, +15 damage, 14% Critical 6-SP, 39-89 Damage (Includes +12 H Damage gear). Melee Accuracy(8) + Wep(4) + Dex(12) + Bonus(5). Estimated minimum damage from Critical hit before soak = (39 x 2) = 78. Estimated Maximum before soak = (89 x 3) = 267. Note: In some situations I have seen hits of up to 220 after soak! This will continue to rise as she nears her goal of Frenzied Blows(7), and as Dance of Shadows increases it will add an even higher chance for a critical hit to occur (All Crits Stack). For the first 23 levels you will be able to attack with Frenzied Blows constantly because of it's low SP cost. After Level 23 your SP should have grown naturally or you have acquired +SP gear to support the extra +4 SP Frenzied Blows(7) will require. ConclusionIf you have ever played racket ball then you know a perfect kill shot occurs when the ball hits precisely where the floor meets the wall and merely rolls across the floor without bouncing giving your opponent no opportunity to hit back. In "Crimson Rain" Selen is designed to kill quickly her Constitution provides an HP cushion for those times when you need to clear a bridge, or punch a hole through enemy lines for Vraes to exploit. She can stand up to direct multiple enemies in melee combat, or flank, or run to put out fires when the enemy attacks from the rear. Without the interlocking Talents that each team member contributes she would not be able to perform such feats of destruction. Every character is only as good as the team.
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women & wine can effect a man that way.
Got me laughing on that one, thanks just edited. Seems only fair after misspelling the Baron's.
The primary weapon determines the Attribute used.
