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Post by nails on Jul 28, 2011 19:14:02 GMT -5
fallen/Corey Once I saw moof's reply, I understood. makes total sense conceptually to me BTW, I saw someone posted an idea about having an exponential increase in XP needed to raise an attribute once you reach an arbitrary "max". I have know idea about code for a game, but this seems like a better fix than just a hard cap on an attribute. I coach for a living, and as a concept, if I want to have someone get great at one thing, we put a lot of time and effort (XP) into that one thing. If someone wants to be just absolutely incredible at evading conflict, let them spend a couple hundred XP to raise Dex or something that last little bit. Sorry for the length. know you guys are crazy busy
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 28, 2011 22:09:41 GMT -5
I agree, to a point. Lets say you are talking about Athletics and Strength. I feel that the human limit for Athletic Skill is a very fluid value and with enough training people can reach incredible short term capabilities.
Biological studies show that there are hard limits to the ability of our bodies to carry stress, impact or generate force. Strength -- as an attribute -- is intended to represent this baseline "material science" of flesh.
Therefore, we propose a hard limit on Attributes and an Exponential unlimited scale for Skills. Cyberware can push the limits of a Knight beyond Human failsafes, but at a terrible cost.
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Post by spectre on Jul 29, 2011 1:01:31 GMT -5
A cost to their humanity perhaps???
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Post by moof on Jul 29, 2011 1:58:01 GMT -5
I agree, to a point. Lets say you are talking about Athletics and Strength. I feel that the human limit for Athletic Skill is a very fluid value and with enough training people can reach incredible short term capabilities. Biological studies show that there are hard limits to the ability of our bodies to carry stress, impact or generate force. Strength -- as an attribute -- is intended to represent this baseline "material science" of flesh. Therefore, we propose a hard limit on Attributes and an Exponential unlimited scale for Skills. Cyberware can push the limits of a Knight beyond Human failsafes, but at a terrible cost. Although I don't disagree with what you said, isn't that a little redundant having to put points into body and then into str or dex? |
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 29, 2011 2:41:39 GMT -5
Well as raising STR and DEX and BOD all provide different benefits, I do not think it is redundant. Here are some design thoughts:
BOD provides physical resistance (soak) to damage vs. HP and access to higher levels of STR and DEX. This is the "resistance" statistic for the familiar traditional RPG design.
STR and DEX provide accuracy, AP and skill cost multipliers. These second-tier attributes are the ones tested for abilities, non-soak attribute tests and they are used in equations for ratings and ratios.
Focusing on STR and DEX, this triangle of numbers provides some unique interplay between the values. For example, a character may be simple very resistant to damage, but not particularly strong or fast.
However, to be both strong and fast the character pays an increasingly high XP cost. If the character is only going to be strong, and avoids training for speed, the training is easier and thus costs less.
The cost to raise STR is determined by BOD and DEX. Therefore the cost to raise an STR linked skill (like Brawling) is related to STR, then BOD, then DEX (in that order) for importance to the build. This interconnection will provide us a number of ratios and "hooks" for additional rules.
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moody
Exemplar
Posts: 298
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Post by moody on Jul 29, 2011 3:53:38 GMT -5
@cory just throwing in a quick thought. Could BOD contribute towards drug addiction resistance? So say you take HedLolz to get you through a fight, only to find that you are now addicted to them. Now you need to take more HedLolz to get the same affect + needing to take them just to keep back the withdrawal factor. All of this could be cured (for a price) at a local clinic / doctor.
So the higher your BOD the less chance you'll have to picking up an addiction.
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Post by nails on Jul 29, 2011 5:15:10 GMT -5
need to gnaw on this for a bit
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Post by moof on Jul 29, 2011 11:52:07 GMT -5
@cory makes sense. All I know is my first character is not even remotely close to being within the boundries anymore lol. I think the new system is fine and having an attribute cap makes sense, and having a skill cap makes sense as well because of the physical limits of the human body, but I have no idea what the limits of the brain are...
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Post by nails on Jul 29, 2011 19:57:59 GMT -5
moofThe brain is the part I wasn't sure you could cap. I recognize it's a game and everything, but we don't have a clue what the real life boundaries are, let alone a computer enhanced brain.
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Post by moof on Jul 29, 2011 22:02:15 GMT -5
nails lol yeah. I mean if this game was trying to base its values on real life people who are worlds greatest _blank_ and built the maxes off of those that would be rather interesting. Max int is 200 max charisma is based off of kennedy... Body that dude who took a canon ball to the stomach. ;D
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Post by Cory Trese on Jul 30, 2011 3:00:34 GMT -5
Rank 1 Amateur (Basic Introduction)
Rank 2 Trained (Basic Class)
Rank 3 Proficient (Studied and Practiced)
Rank 4 Skilled (Average Regular User / Amateur Athlete)
Rank 5 Professional (Paramilitary / Top-Tier Amateur / Average Knight)
Rank 6 Innate (Standard Military / Professional Athlete)
Rank 7 Expert (Special Forces Training / Top-Tier Professional Athlete)
Rank 8 World Class (Elite Special Forces Training / Athletes At Nationals)
Rank 9 Preeminent (Active Special Forces / Olympic Athletes)
Rank 10 Master (Elite Special Forces / Olympic Contender)
Rank 11 Virtuoso (Cyber Special Forces / Bronze Medalist)
Rank 12 Elite (Elite Cyber Special Forces / Silver Medalist)
Rank 13 Grand Master (Some of the best in the world / Gold Medalist / James Bond)
Rank 14 High Grand Master (One of the best in the world)
Rank 15 Ascendant (Best in the world)
You know my penchant for tables of ratings ...
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Post by nails on Jul 30, 2011 5:31:29 GMT -5
How will the person who plays as a pure human, say with just a datajack, compete with the Terminator?
Also, I know you are making it more expensive to raise an attribute in a column as you raise the other attribute within that column.
Is there merit instead to making that...penalty...be across columns?
I know that when I work on strength with athletes, it has a direct POSITIVE impact on dex. it is, with some training, actually easier to be more dextrous.
but maybe we don't focus on the brains of things as much or as long as we should and it is thus harder to improve the mind as quickly.
you could get into some really neat formula relationships between body and mind columns.
again, sorry for the length. morning coffee is kicking in.
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Post by dilz669 on Jul 30, 2011 23:08:03 GMT -5
Ok, so I can't remember which thread I saw it in, but I know I saw Cory explain somewhere that to raise an attribute the XP cost was the other two related attributes added and then doubled. So, given the attached screenshot, shouldn't it be 16XP to raise my Body and 14XP to raise my Mind?
Edit: See screenshot in next post.
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Post by dilz669 on Jul 30, 2011 23:09:27 GMT -5
Here's the screenshot. -1 Karma for the preview button. Attachments:
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Post by fallen on Jul 31, 2011 15:28:00 GMT -5
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