TeeWee
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Posts: 247
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Post by TeeWee on Jan 11, 2011 7:12:42 GMT -5
I still play with the free version to see how well this fits my preferences, but I have a gameplay / balance question.
Is interplanetary trade a viable style? And with this, I mean through regular trade as your main source of income. No exploring / harvesting, not waiting for extreme shortages or surpluses, just finding a good trade route and seting up a slow but steady flow of income.
Currently, it seems, unless I'm missing something, impossible to start the game with being a pure merchant. There simply is no good trade route. The gap between buying and selling is simply too big to make any profit at all. The game has an goods exchange, which suggests interplanetary traders, but as it is, there is no way that such traders would exist because there is no living to be had as a trader.
Compare this to for example good old Elite: you start with just 100 credits and by hauling foodstuffs, machinery, metals etc between planets with decent but not spectacular profit margins, you can actually make enough money to, eventually, arm your spaceship to the teeth.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 11, 2011 12:45:06 GMT -5
"No exploring / harvesting, not waiting for extreme shortages or surpluses, just finding a good trade route and seting up a slow but steady flow of income."
I think that game play style is viable on the lower difficulties.
ST RPG Merchants are, from the start, delivering packages and passengers along the way.
Once established a Merchant can get better prices at friendly exchanges and start making good money on trading.
However, the often tempts the Merchant to start smuggling and selling illegal goods to independents.
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TeeWee
Hero
[ Star Traders 2 & Heroes Supporter ]
Posts: 247
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Post by TeeWee on Jan 12, 2011 13:40:38 GMT -5
Though it's your game obviously and you can balance the game in any way you want, story-wise, isn't this a bit upside-down?
I believe it would make more sense story-wise that you'd be able to make a living as a merchant and build reputation that way, while delivering packages and messages would be a sideline. Instead, you have to earn your reputation as a delivery boy until you can even start to think about making a living as an actual merchant.
And from the client-side: would you entrust your packages to a nobody or would you rather ask a respected merchant to carry the package.
I would really like to be able to make a small living as a simple merchant from the start. It will be a hard living and margins would be small. But right now, the margins are negative. For a game that's called "Star Traders RPG", I think it would make sense to balance it to make the trading-side a bit more viable.
Anyway, I'll keep on going on the free version to see if I can increase my rep enough to get decent prices and pour in the XP into Negotiation. If it catches my fancy enough, I'll go Elite.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 12, 2011 14:02:43 GMT -5
There are parts of this post that make a lot of game-sense.
So, once again, we set off to the lab.
PS: The status of upgrading to Elite or not -- this is a topic best left off the forum, please.
I like to assume that everyone is supporting us in one way or another. There is literally only two of us so positive momentum and optimistic thinking are really key.
Whatever version you play, we appreciate the feedback, suggestions, encouragement and energy.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 12, 2011 15:03:20 GMT -5
Upon further review I find that Trading and a pure merchant to be a highly profitable and viable play mode.
It is not viable, however, if you elect to ignore the major elements of the universe such as Conflicts and Trade Rumors.
The "Star Trader" in the game's title refers to the profession of selling and buying the ancient ships.
You are able to make a simple living as a merchant from the very start. It is a hard living and the risks are great.
The trading side is not perfect. If the player is willing to play the game, however, the trading system is viable as a profession. That said, it is possible that the concepts below could be expanded to include other modes.
* Star Trader RPG trade routes are not fixed, easily predictable or permanent. * Factions have tight control over almost all resource generation and property. * War, Bans, Shortages and Surpluses create temporary trade routes.
As a correlation, being a Pirate is not very profitable if you attack random merchants. Positive margins are almost always found in trade surge and rich merchant zones.
PS: What I was trying to say above was that we try to think of all players the same way regardless of ability, desire or opportunity to upgrade to Elite.
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TeeWee
Hero
[ Star Traders 2 & Heroes Supporter ]
Posts: 247
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Post by TeeWee on Jan 12, 2011 15:56:43 GMT -5
Thanks for your response. The way you react to players' input is great and a shining example for other developers.
Anyway, your replies make sense and I will try and see if I can get to achieve a profitable result as a merchant.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 12, 2011 16:03:24 GMT -5
I am wondering if there is a way to make some type of non-rumor profit but still provide the same type of risk challenges.
So maybe the game should recognize "quality goods (high rating economies) from far away places (distance + factional relevance score) are more desirable (higher buy-value)."
That way the merchant could eek out a difficult living just hauling stuff long distances from the core worlds to far away fringe worlds.
Even this is might be a bit of a stretch from a data storage point and we'd have to find a way to estimate it so the game didn't slow down / consume too much memory / battery storing and calculating all those distances!
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TeeWee
Hero
[ Star Traders 2 & Heroes Supporter ]
Posts: 247
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Post by TeeWee on Jan 12, 2011 16:46:49 GMT -5
I understand that the platform limits the things you can do. Anyway, a few suggestions from the perspective as a player viewing your game universe as a whole.
I'd have a look at what type of worlds produce what type of goods and also what needs the world has. Probably things you've already thought of, but sometimes having it written down, it can set a spark on some part of your thought processes.
In very simplistic terms, your rich civilized worlds would want luxurious goods, poorer worlds would need more basic stuff like foods.
Production worlds would produce raw materials. Big stardock-worlds have a big need for raw materials.
This can be a guide to see what worlds get what price ranges. I understand that you don't want to tag all cargo with point of origin.
What you can do is make e.g. a Stardock near a mining world producing crystals. The trade run Mining world - big Stardock world on Crystals generally should be profitable, but if it's close enough, it shouldn't be super-profitable. If that Stardock doesn't have a good source of Metal nearby, than hauling Metal would be much more profitable but also riskier due to distances.
To make it less predictable, the markets should fluctuate a bit so runs that should be profitable can, at times, have negative margins. In game universe terms, a competitor just came in with a major haul and affected the markets. Also, you can have random events (rumours) have mining world output collapse or surge, have Stardocks close, have economies collapse, etc.
I'm afraid doing it like this would lead to a complete rebalancing of prices etc and might take a long time to get right.
Hope this helps in your ongoing efforts.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 12, 2011 18:26:20 GMT -5
The game uses economy types, economy rating, distance to nearest Faction friendly, distance to nearest Faction hostile (Conflicts), rumors, rumors on nearby worlds.
You're the first person to ask, but here are the types of economies in Star Traders RPG:
// econ types public static final int ECON_TYPE_OUTPOST = 8; public static final int ECON_TYPE_MINE = 7; public static final int ECON_TYPE_REFUGE = 6; public static final int ECON_TYPE_MILITARY = 5; public static final int ECON_TYPE_CRIMINAL = 4; public static final int ECON_TYPE_ARGO = 3; public static final int ECON_TYPE_MANUFACT = 2; public static final int ECON_TYPE_CAPITAL = 1; public static final int ECON_TYPE_SURV = 0;
There are grades of these based on population type, ranging from "Civilized Faction Capital" to "Fringe Independent 14 AU Distant" which serve as modifiers to the economy types. Level 6 to Level 0.
The economic condition is measured on a scale from 0.0 to 11.0 and can go to -21.0 and +121.0 due to rumors, Conflicts, Events, Trade Volume, Combat and completed Contract counts.
This is a sliding scale maintained over time and almost all Rumors impact it. Classic example -- check the availability of Metals following a long Stardock closure on ECON_TYPE_MANUFACT. Watch nearby mining colonies for Metal Shortages during Conflicts between Syndicate and House around ECON_TYPE_MILITARY. There are around 200 conditional sub-rules for this type of action in ST RPG right now. =)
Each of the resources has 4 scales from 0.0 to 11.0 for each of the 8 econ types -- availability, desire, production and tax.
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 12, 2011 18:30:02 GMT -5
Note: The economic simulation is supposed to be a *backdrop* for an Epic RPG storyline.
Everyone keeps asking for a storyline and goals. I get very few e-mails for "I want a manual of the economic simulation sub-system in your game so I can exploit shortages."
I get a lot of e-mails like "Where is the final boss?" and "I cannot figure out how to win. Is there a bug?"
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 12, 2011 19:17:09 GMT -5
Also, that all said ... there is actually no proof that the RPG map we used to build the game map actually contains any real viable trade routes that aren't messed up by some of the inter-connection of the economies.
I really don't know -- I do know that the system is deeply effected for long periods of time by Shortage and Surplus. That is what I use to play merchants and what my guides explain.
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Post by jtwood on Jan 12, 2011 19:45:56 GMT -5
When I first started playing, I assumed that the price to buy a random item on Planet A could be cheaper than the price to sell it on Planet B, then I saw that wasn't usually the case. At least, not to the point that it's profitable.
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Post by Kelvin Zero on Jan 13, 2011 1:14:43 GMT -5
I think my problem had been that I tried out the merchant aspect of trading my first run but found it was way more profitable to go the explorer route to make money with using increased Faction Rank as a means to get better deals. I haven't really paid attention to the ebb and flow of commerce that the rumors would have been telling me.
I was also experimenting with raising money by robbing merchants and selling the ill gotten goods at the nearest port, which is probably a bad idea if the game pays attention to my exploits. I am going to try to start stockpiling more stuff, remembering where I put it and then try to run to the shortage rumors to see how much profit I could make.
One question though, if I hear a rumor of a ban on an item, does that mean I can't sell that item there at all or will I get a better price if I can make it past the authorities?
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Post by Cory Trese on Jan 13, 2011 1:38:43 GMT -5
A ban causes a bunch of ripple effects.
Notably -- you will not be able to sell the goods. The "sale price" will be like $2 -- the Faction offers to take the banned goods off your hands for "destruction" and pays you a delivery fee.
However, merchants leaving the orbit of the planet will be stuffed to the gills with the stuff as operatives, Captains and Merchants try to move it offworld before it is seized and destroyed.
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TeeWee
Hero
[ Star Traders 2 & Heroes Supporter ]
Posts: 247
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Post by TeeWee on Jan 13, 2011 6:06:32 GMT -5
Note: The economic simulation is supposed to be a *backdrop* for an Epic RPG storyline. Everyone keeps asking for a storyline and goals. I get very few e-mails for "I want a manual of the economic simulation sub-system in your game so I can exploit shortages." I get a lot of e-mails like "Where is the final boss?" and "I cannot figure out how to win. Is there a bug?" I understand it's but one mechanic in your entire game and just one aspect in your entire story universe. And I understand your decision to make it just a backdrop mechanic. As such, the mechanic seems to work and I will continue exploring the game deeper to see if I can exploit the ebb and flow of supplies. BTW, glad to see that even if it's just a backdrop mechanic, you are thinking of game events in economic terms too. Adds a lot to the game. That said, it surprises me to have you state that people are asking about goals, final bosses and winning. These are things I haven't even contemplated, as I currently view the game as an open-ended "do-as-you-please-but-beware-consequences" type game instead of one with a clear pre-set goal. A matter of differing perspective
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