NEW: Hydra and Neptune

[Cory Trese]

Jan 21, 2013 16:45:48 GMT -5 slayernz said:

Hydra armor should be rated for extra protection against the fire strength of the Hydra weapon. That is, entry level Hydra armor should almost fully protect against entry level Hydra.

I did get to play with the Hydra and targeted firing is very nice, but the Xeno's remaining don't seem to roast nearly as fast as I'd expect. Nonetheless, a Hydra with another unit in backup will clean up reasonably well.

The shielding attribute is used to protect against fire. We decided for balance reasons to NOT allow Hydra armor to almost fully protect against entry level Hydra fire. Critical choice here, and we did many hours of testing to verify it was the right choice for our game.

[slayernz]

As much as I hate to suggest it, I recommend nerfing the Neptune.
His ability to consume zero AP with a successful hit is too powerful. If anything, it should be a % chance of consuming zero AP (base 20% with tactics increasing that chance). It still needs to be capped at maybe 60% or so.
My Neptune is sitting pretty with 92 battles, and 1992 kills. I've only held his kill rate back since battle 50 because it makes the rest of the squad look bad, The most kills in one turn I've had him have is 10 Xeno's.

[Cory Trese]

Jan 28, 2013 18:37:58 GMT -5 slayernz said:

As much as I hate to suggest it, I recommend nerfing the Neptune.
His ability to consume zero AP with a successful hit is too powerful. If anything, it should be a % chance of consuming zero AP (base 20% with tactics increasing that chance). It still needs to be capped at maybe 60% or so.
My Neptune is sitting pretty with 92 battles, and 1992 kills. I've only held his kill rate back since battle 50 because it makes the rest of the squad look bad, The most kills in one turn I've had him have is 10 Xeno's.

Upcoming release has a few things -- Neptune ammo capacity reduction and removed the Neptune's ability to benefit from Ammo Kits.

We'll keep working on the balance!

[bobsoup]

Question... unless I'm counting wrong... are hydra not credited for kills if the remnants of their fire kills an enemy?

[Cory Trese]

Feb 3, 2013 14:56:39 GMT -5 bobsoup said:

Question... unless I'm counting wrong... are hydra not credited for kills if the remnants of their fire kills an enemy?

That is true. Coding compromise for performance reasons we're not keeping track of who's fire is who's

Sorry

[algesan]

Jan 3, 2013 14:49:11 GMT -5 Lt. Hathaway said:

Right on, not trying to be a Shalun Martyr about it I just love this game, and the idea of plasma flamethrowers, wow, the screaming of the bugs, the chared, burning husks crackling and too hot to crunch through without special Atar armor, the raging wails of the Xeno who dare not cross the molten deckplates... You know how it is, don't you?

<snip>

I agree, on a previous Kindle I ran up first one and then two Hydra troops (using guns, so they could be semi useful in killing stuff) in a squad.  Really, I'm not sure of the use of these things. 
1.  The lack of ammo limits the usage, which relates to...
2.  The lack of killyness for an area effect weapon, pop fire (frying the one targeted xeno) and have wounded (?, maybe) xenos still coming hrough the fire and attacking...
3.  They block everything in the direction fired (especially other Templars, in fact, if it worked half as good on xenos as it did my own squadmates, I'd find it somewhat useful
4.  It probably would work well enough as a rearguard unit, except the AP limitations on the specialist and firing the weapon kill his movement and the rearguard must(!) be mobile.
5.  A Vet or Scout is more killy during most games using ammo packs and hands down, a Neptune wins out.  In fact, you could probably nerf the Neptune down a whole lot more before I'd take a Hydra again.

Probably it is an issue of style and tactics, but after all the hoopla over the Hydra, it really failed to impress.

OT: Of course, with the new recruiting ability, heck, just run with the tutorial squad and buy what you want.

[johndramey]

First off, welcome to the forums, algesan. Always glad to see some people talking about TA. Feel free to stick around, post about anything you want, and just generally hang out. Most of the people here very helpful and we don't mind new faces at all.

I think you might have misquoted something there and everything after the <snip> is your opinion? Either way, I'll try to address what has been said there.

Answering #2 - The Hydra's damage has been balanced pretty well imo, it will kill almost all of the lower level enemies in 2 - 3 "turns" of exposure. By turn I mean a move cycle, where each xeno or enemy moves followed by your templars. If I remember correctly the Hydra incinerators do the most direct, single hit damage in the game as well, so if you get a direct hit with one of the higher level variants you are pretty much guaranteed a kill.

Answering #1/3/4/5 - You touched on the Hydra's main strengths in your critique in #4. Hydras are absolute beasts at area denial and should be used as such. If you want to kill a single xeno a hydra is not effective; you'll end up with messy plasma napalm everywhere and deny that route to your squad mates. If, however, you want to close down an area of approach then park that hydra in the corridor and unleash some Christmas cheer. Pump up their evasion a bit and he'll be able to dodge most attacks. If you positioned your hydra correctly the xeno will be sitting in the plasma while it's trying to hit you; in essence killing itself.

Also, Hydra Troopers can move after firing. The only class that is locked down after firing is the Neptune Trooper. IMO the Neptune trooper is the least flexible of the classes as it's relegated to pure defensive fire. I use my Hydra every mission, only breaking out the Neptune troopers when I need to hold a wide open area from a lot of xenos.

In conclusion, the Hydra trooper takes a little more thought and strategy to use than the other classes, but is a very, very powerful unit. If you want a more in-depth guide on using the Hydras I would be more than happy to write one up for you (and the other people who browse the TA boards). Of course, as with anything, there is a lot of subjectivity in the viability of the classes. I'll admit that I'm probably in the minority for loving the Hydras above all else, but I would really hesitate to call them weak or underpowered.

[Lt. Hathaway]

That's me, above the snip. I should probably have looked the post up before I commented, but if I recall correctly, there was an uprate on fire damage that seemed to make Hydras viable. If I were to suggest anything big at this point, it would be to make 'big' fire impassable to xenos.

I find the Neptune superior for my purposes in a moving game in that it can deny space equally well, and never prevents squad movement beyond the end of the turn. I've been training and equipping my Neptune troopers with good gauntlets, which helps eliminate the trooper getting stuck by his own fire.

This would probably be a good idea, even a better idea, for Hydra troops. I'd not really considered the question of what to spend xp on for Hydras. Shooting skill I suddenly realize is more or less pointless. The fireball goes up whether you 'hit' or not. Melee is the obvious place to spend. Is this what I'm doing wrong?

I'd be thrilled to see an Hydra tactical guide! I'd like to see a YouTube demo even more.

[xdesperado]

johndramey +1 exalt
Totally agree with how useful the Hydra is. My prefered squad for many missions is 2 Hydras, Scout and Chaplain.

The Hydras are great for flank and rear security while the Scout provides cover and the Chaplain leads.

Think a combination of improper tactics and the fact that they don't get credited in the stats for most of their kills is what has put some people off them.

[johndramey]

algesan, Lt. Hathaway, xdesperado - I've posted a guide to the Hydra here. Read through it and let me know what you guys think.

Lt. Hathaway - youtube demo, huh? I don't know how to do that on my phone. If you know how please let me know and I'll make one. Otherwise, well, you'll have to imagine what I wrote

[Lt. Hathaway]

Taking a look. The YouTube video thing is almost a personal joke for me at this point... this is at least the third time I've suggested it, and I think you're the first to actually respond. I'm also Android only right now, and I have no idea how to do it well without a computer, although iirc, the Trese channel ones are actually an iphone filming a tablet running the game, so it can be done.

[algesan]

It *is* probably more of a style issue then. If the fire is improved so it kills xenos better, then upping evasion, then warrior might make it work. OTOH, fire and movement with a heavy weapon is something I'm used to, so the Neptune is my favorite offensive guy. Nope, he will never dance around through the corridors, but neither will a Hydra doing area denial and there is still the issue of having a relatively low AP troop ending up having to play catch up from the rearguard.

With the Neptune, it takes finesse, but what you basically do is "plow the fields" with a much larger area denial arc for open spaces and sufficient armor, shielding and the crucial range 4 to lead the assault in tunnels. Yes, the Neptune will "slow down" a squad compared to a bunch of Vets, Scouts & Berserkers, but this should be true of any heavy weapon. Chaplain commander, two Zerks and a Neptune work fine for me.

[johndramey]

Oh definitely, it all comes down to personal preference. However, I feel like I should better represent my beloved Hydra Troopers here so everyone can see how well they can do when used correctly. This was the final mission of the Vestmarch opening campaign and, upon completeion, my squad had 44 kills total. You can see just how many kills my Hydra was responsible for.

I'd like to say that I didn't really feed him kills at all, this is just how I normally play with the little bugger. In the interests of full disclosure I should point out that the mission was a defensive mission, I'm sure a Neptune could have had a comparable amount of kills. This isn't about showing Hydra superiority, this is more about showing Hydra equality.

Hydra civil rights activist signing off.

[Lt. Hathaway]

I think that in game mechanics terms, the Hydra is superior, and has been at since the last round of this Hydra vs. Neptune ongoing discussion. What's interesting to me is that when I swap my Neptune for an equal Hydra and employ my regular tactics, I lose troops. In play, the fire generally delays me a critical 2-3 turns which results getting hit with a third/fourth spawn wave. With a Neptune, that wave is usually just coming into range as I exit,, usually headed by a slow bug which I've left intact. A slow xeno is, in my opinion, the best tunnel denial 'weapon' in the Templar inventory (although those venerated ammo drums look pretty sweet.)

I can't think of any change I'd make to the Hydra at this time. Fire finally really works well for slow, keep-the-squad-together tactics, what I've sometimes referred to as the Trese tactics, based on the number of times I've suggested 'change this so I can do that,' and gotten 'By Shalun! No righteous Brother would do such a thing! It would lead to captains splitting their squads and completing both tasks at the same time! Nerf the Neptune!' (All in good fun, guys! I love that the 'should we split the squad' tutorial level is one of the few levels where splitting really makes it harder. Was that intentional? Viciously difficult level with Light tactics!)

I'm writing up a combination Light Infantry tactical guide/heresy proceedings doc. It's going slowly right now, but it's getting there.

[johndramey]

Lt. Hathaway - I would love to read your take on tactics. I usually keep my forces bunched, but have been splitting of more and more. I think I like the Hydra because he allows me to maintain mobility, covering more than one area at a time, and do more hit-and-run style tactics than the Neptune.

All in all, I think the Hydra vs. Neptune debate shows more about a players style than any of the other decisions we can make.

I'm also working on taking screenshots of my Hydra strategies and when/where I use them. I'll post them up in the Hydra thread, that way people can (hopefully) learn to love them as much as I do.