Is There Too Much Gold in the Game?

[vdx]

This came up indirectly in a thread by abysmal but inorder to have a more concise and specific discussion, I opted to start a new thread.

Q1: Is there simply too much gold in the game?

-or alternatively-

Q2: Is there simply too much loot and gold in the game?

Discussion:

The more loot that is found, the less the party needs to buy equipment and the more gold the party gets from selling the surplus loot, which fuels the gold issue.
Late in EP 2, there's a 20k or so piece of armor (well worth the price) but at that point in the game, 20k is only a small dent in your pocket book.

Even on Nightmare, I've never had a problem buying the best equipment with thousands of left over gold. As a playing style, I rarely buy options etc from any game and continued that habit in HoS, which made for the occasional tight spot on SP intensive builds but nothing worth noting. Buying potions with the surplus gold seems to make even a SP build unstoppable which as I realized as I opted to stock up on potions before entering the Cult Temple on this play through. I had enough gold on Nightmare to buy more Minor Sprit Potions (300-380 SP) than I could possible use in the temple. Seriously, I'm running out of things to blast with over powered attacks.

The over abundance of SP potions means I don't have to worry about any equipment that adds SP, seriously what's an extra 112 SP (Torc of Solitude) when I have essentially an infinite supply of SP? The result is the ability to focus on HP, Damage etc ads (hey, extra HP is needed as hitting zero HP is death, where hitting zero SP is simply "time to refill." Thus the over abundance of gold tweaks the balance of equipment bonus.

Also, with the inclusive of stronger HP and SP potions along with incantations and tombs that can remove curses, sustain active buffs etc, the extra gold becomes a easy way to have a massively powerful party simply from item use. It leads to discussions that the potions etc out preform talents, esp for the healer. Why spend AP and SP to heal when each character could simply use 1 AP to use an item that heals the same, or often more, at no SP use? Why invest in Purifying Breeze if using a Tomb of Cleasing plus a potion uses less AP and costs no SP?

For example: Basic Healing Talents Compared to Item Use

Level 7 Myshana's Tears uses 3AP and 42 SP. It heals 320 (+7x Lore) HP.
Level 10 Purifying Breeze uses 3AP and 82 SP. It removes cureses and heals 244 (+10xLore) as a 5x5 AoE.
An Infused Healing Potion costs 1 AP to use and heals 280-360 HP.
Tincture of Vitality uses 1 AP. It heals 200-400 to entire party, regardless of distance or spacing (AoE of entire map).
Tomb of Cleansing removes all Curses from entire party, regardless of distance or spacing (AoE of entire map).

There are numerous other healing potions and the stronger the potion, the rarer it is to find and the more costly it is to buy. However, given the surplus gold, cost isn't a factor. In addition, even if a party has to use two or three potions to mimic the effect of a healing talent, it's still comparable (and often better) than the AP and SP use of the healing talent. If every character can use 1 AP to consume a decent healing potion per round and one player needs to use a heal every one potion, there seems to be little reason to have a healer. The gold and item availability make the role more symbolic than anything else, so it seems.

Not having to invest in healing abilities, means a party could invest in solely attack and defense talents, which again tweaks the balance of the game.

Thoughts?

[fallen]

vdx - lol, I will point people at you when the changes are made

Thanks for the post on this, I was already in process of making some changes.

Would be interested to hear what others think. I still get emails saying that the game is insanely too hard on Easy difficulty.

[tenbsmith]

I can't believe I'm stepping front of the firing squad with vdx...

I play a little bit each day, so I've logged limited hours since the TB's increased the amount of loot being dropped but, in my humble opinion, vdx may be on to something. Loot seems a bit overabundant in the Oskahold region.

[fallen]

Oct 23, 2014 14:54:02 GMT -5 tenbsmith said:

I'll be curious to see what others write. I play a little bit each day, so I've logged limited hours since the TB's increased the amount of loot being dropped but, in my humble opinion, vdx may be on to something. Loot seems a bit overabundant in the Oskahold region.

Maybe there is some confusion about the changes that were made. 30 new pieces of extremely low level gear were added around Oskahold. Before that, on a single play through it was possible to make it to the Great Shaman with only about half your gear slots having anything. I really don't think that change contributes to vdx's long-term concern, where by the time you reach E2, you're riding high on gold.

[fallen]

Oct 23, 2014 14:54:02 GMT -5 tenbsmith said:

I can't believe I'm stepping front of the firing squad with vdx...

It'll be nerfing for a good cause

[Cory Trese]

It depends a lot on how good you are at the game. I have seen saved games where people are broke (<1000 gold) finishing E2 and had saved games where people have 60K killing big V.

PS: you can always send us saved games from Helium =)

[bobc]

Totally agree that it becomes a lot easier to accumulate gold through Ep2; there are some generous quest rewards & gear from chests can sell at a high price. (And the "double your reward" bug was a nice bonus until it got reported!) I spend quite freely & still managed to hoard nearly 200k by the end of Ep2.

However, I play the leaderboards where gold has quite an impact on score: 200k gold is around 200 million points. So, finally to the point. If the ability to accumulate gold is reduced will it make the current leaderboard high scores unassailable? And if so, how can they be fixed so that new games have a chance of the high score?

[En1gma]

I personally like the balance of gold on normal, where I play 95% of games. It's tight until you get into the Warren, then you get a good stash and can buy what you need- even more so if your group uses very few potions. By the time I usually get to Riven Field, I have between 4-6k, which is perfect for outfitting yourself with whatever gear you need. I feel like you should have plenty of gold on lower difficulties- I also feel like E1A1+2 are balanced. I have played almost 50 groups overall, and I don't feel like I have too much gold by the end of it. On normal you should have the gold you need to buy what you need. Unfortunately I haven't been too far into E2, but from what I've seen, the gold on normal is appreciable.

[John Robinson]

Are you drawing fire?  No.  Do I disagree?  Yes.

I prefer an abundance of gold.  Getting loot offers more combinations of equipment between characters.  For example a character may have a pair of boots that would be 
foolhardy to give up but would love to have another piece of equipment to do the same thing so the boots could be switched out.  It is fun to play never knowing what great new
items have been created or what to expect in a drop.  The best way to save up for something you really want is by selling gear you don't need.  There are characters I haven't
combined in a party and already know they will be SP heavy users,  I don't want to be forced into using something like Sacrifice to plug the gap because I cannot afford potions.

The fun is getting to experiment with all of them in any combination of Talents and Skills while producing enough income to support your designs.

Not everyone is as skilled at playing or interested in higher difficulty levels. I'm one of those people.  Perhaps you just want a relaxing low difficulty. Large gold and loot offer more flexibility in choosing how you want to play.  In my own experience one mistake in a large battle will cost me 15,000 in gold to replace my potions, some of which are not available for purchase and can only be found in loot drops.  We also do not know what level of resources will be needed in Chapter 3 and 4.

I think HoS made a fundamental commitment to let players have the freedom to play as they choose.  Too much gold and loot?  Well stop opening chests! lol. Nobody is making you spend gold. If more stringent limits are needed why not apply it to Nightmare or higher?  How does 10% of normal sound?  Doesn't the learderboard give a bonus for the amount of gold you have?
Coming back to having too much.  A self imposed limit, setting your own goal of not spending more than 10,000 or using more than 5 potions until you reach the Orcin Siege.
I think Forum challenges have done a good job in filling this gap.

There are other games I just stopped playing because it became so tiresome, boring and frustrating trying to scrape by on small rewards. I never want that to happen to me playing HoS.
So far I've played HoS for hundreds of hours on different devices without this type of regret and still felt the suspense of not having enough gold or drops to satisfy my goals.
Successful players in Nightmare are heroes in their own rite and allot of fun to read about.  I do not believe the majority of HoS players prefer Nightmare or higher.  I am growing
more concerned that the lines between difficulty levels could begin to blur if the economics of having fun begin to move away from abundance into the direction of famine.

I think preserving freedom of choice for individual players trumps universal limits.   

 

[plunk]

There are other games I just stopped playing because it became so tiresome, boring and frustrating trying to scrape by on small rewards. I never want that to happen to me playing HoS.
So far I've played HoS for hundreds of hours on different devices without this type of regret and still felt the suspense of not having enough gold or drops to satisfy my goals.
Successful players in Nightmare are heroes in their own rite and allot of fun to read about. I do not believe the majority of HoS players prefer Nightmare or higher. I am growing
more concerned that the lines between difficulty levels could begin to blur if the economics of having fun begin to move away from abundance into the direction of famine.

Then make earning gold at higher difficulty levels harder but leave Easy Modo and Normal untouched. Or increase the gold available in those modes.

Also the developers are supposed to design the challenge. If it was up to the players then why the hell have 5 difficulty levels in the first place?

[abysmal]

What do you mean money is tight on Normal? I haven't bought anything but current equipment and I'm still running nice and loaded with 8K on normal, 6.7K on hard. Both of them I'm about to fight the great Shaman. I do think that this does have something to do with buff and curse builds as my build is designed to be more SP intensive, but even then, without buying a single potion I'm at 36 minor potions and 27 of the next highest one. I doubt I need to worry about SP for long.

[fallen]

abysmal - everyone plays very differently ... so depending on your skill and luck, you may or may not have a lot of gold. I mentioned earlier that I continue to receive emails that Easy is "too hard to play" and people have quit and 1-starred the game because it is simply too hard to enjoy. it is our responsibility to strike a balance and balance carefully.

[slayernz]

fallen, You get that in all the TB's games tho because the muppets out there in Android/Apple land are so used to having a shallow gaming experience where they are either hand-held to the nth degree (until such time where they hit their first IAP in order to continue beating the game), OR they are given a game experience that a 6 year old can figure out. Bright colors, cutesy music and sounds, and lots of IAPs to buy coins and other such rubbish.

These muppets come to HoS or ST or TA and go "huh? why can't I play this game with my eyes closed like I normally do?"

A Ratkin plague on all their houses!

[xdesperado]

LEAVE THE GOLD ALONE!!!

Sorry but much of it depends on play style, character combinations and luck.

I've not gotten into chapter 2 yet but have taken several parties through chapter 1 on Nightmare and have run the gammit from having massive stockpiles of potions etc and plenty of gold to being flat broke and lucky to have a couple potions.

The range in the drops can make a huge difference, add in if you've been lucky in combat getting easy opponents/fights or getting the spawns from hell that force you to dig deep just to survive and your fortune can be up or down.

One of the nice things about HoS is the lack of grinding for XP and Gold...your not forced to keep doing battles over and over again to earn your living and advance your characters. However, that means your also stuck with luck of the draw, sometimes you may get lucky, other times you won't.

Nerfing the gold/loot will just reduce the viable options and could easily leave a party vulnerable to death due to lack of resources if they're unlucky in drops and monster spawns.

[fallen]

xdesperado - great feedback! Thanks for sharing from another angle. I agree, it depends a huge amount on your play-style, and how often you return to camp, etc. I like to avoid camps by spending big on potions, so my groups have smaller stockpiles.