What is the hardest combination of four heroes?

[Blitz]

Ok, I think hardest as in hardest on nightmare ironman. Personally, I call a NMI group successful if no one regularly goes below like 40% HP, because you don't want that plain unlucky round to take someone out. Prepare for the worst, IMHO.

And for me, it's definitely Vraes, Kjartan, Fyona and Tamilin. I got one group to Oskahold just fine. NMI honestly doesn't get really hard till you hit about level 7 or so.

The main problem with this group is the lack of a -AP curse. Reckoning is level 18, and even then it's single target melee, which means that with ideal positioning and with all attacks hitting, you can hit three enemies - and end up leaving Fyona Vulnerable. Not to mention the trouble when enemies start off targeting. A couple of ranged enemies can easily take out Kjartan if they have all their attacks to play with, especially those with 3 attacks.

The way I've been dealing with this is to boost defense very very heavily. I've been playing around with boosted builds and this leads to LONG battles but it works. However, I'm only able to complete ONE battle in the storerooms without using potions. And then I have to go and gulp the blues, or backtrack.

Here's the boosted build that's worked most reliably for me, as in I completed the storerooms without much stress or close calls, but it was tedious. It took me nearly 3 hours just for the storerooms and one quick run to Rivenfield for equipment. I do wonder how we'll do with the Krete though...

Vraes	Kjartan	Fyona	Tamilin
Strength 7 Dexterity 8 Constitution 8 Will 5 Intelligence 5 Knowledge 3 Blades 15 Hammers 3 Polearms 3 Leadership 1 Lore 4 Crushing Blow 1 Stone Skin 4 Savage Sweep 4 Phalanx Shield 4 Natural Mastery 0 Burst of Speed 1 Ferocity 0 Berserk Rage 0 Juggernaut 0	Strength 3 Dexterity 4 Constitution 10 Will 7 Intelligence 6 Knowledge 6 Polearms 2 Sorcery 7 Conjuring 9 Lore 2 Firebolt 1 Choking Ash 5 Pureflame Shield 1 Burning Blades 0 Warding Words 1 Spirit Sight 0 Immolation 0 Meteoric Shockwave 6 Firestorm 0	Strength 6 Dexterity 4 Constitution 11 Will 5 Intelligence 6 Knowledge 4 Hammers 6 Invocation 2 Leadership 3 Lore 9 Zealous Strikes 1 Hammer Blow 1 Blessed Aura 3 Consecrated Defense 0 Shield of Cortias 5 Holy Strickening 0 Battlefield Devotion 1 Righteous Fervor 3 Reckoning 0	Strength 5 Dexterity 8 Constitution 8 Will 4 Intelligence 7 Knowledge 4 Blades 1 Bows 16 Lore 3 Security 3 Stealth 3 Aimed Shot 1 Farsight 1 Precision Pick 1 Disarming Touch 1 Blacknight 4 Torrent of Steel 0 Deadly Intuition 0 Silent Stalker 6 Ranged Onslaught 0

Vraes is using the Keen Long Knife (best 2AP light blade from Rivenfield) and shield, and has all defensive gear. Plan to continue building out Stone Skin, BoS and PS till they're all maxed out.
Kjartan has a mix of gear. Plan to invest 5 points in Firestorm and then max out Pureflame shield.
Fyona is hammer and shield. To get blessed aura to 5, max Righteous fervor and max SoC.
Tamilin has 3AP bow and damage gear. To get RO to 4 and max DI.

I've been leading with Vraes. And opening up locked doors with Kjartan safely at a distance. I've had a couple of deaths and a few close calls when I built Tamilin up for stealth because of lost stealth rolls, even with significant investment in Blacknight, stealth and stealth gear. A buffed up dex Vraes, for now, can take a beating. More open maps have spawns further away anyway and you don't have a zillion people attacking at the same time.

On each turn, lead with curses, depending on enemy setup. Use the silent stalker to further curse either heavily armored or high damage enemies (it does -armor and -accuracy) as necessary. Savage sweep, Zealous strikes and, if you have the AP and want to conserve SP, Aimed shot. Heal with blessed aura as needed. The idea is to have as many enemies as possible cursed with MS, and only the gaggle of enemies you're currently attacking under CA. Silent stalker is flexible. You can either further decrease armor, for example, on giant rats, or further decrease accuracy, for example, on deathkin.

Hide Kjartan behind obstacles as long as he's cursing. Use Tamilin's range to your advantage. Vraes will tank just about anything on any given turn and Fyona can take quite a few hits too - off targeting enemies don't really seem to want to attack Vraes

This particular combination just about lets you complete one fight without potions at level 17, and is the best I've been able to do.

Also, getting this group to level 17 won't be that easy either. I'll bet that getting to level 12 and getting both silent stalker and MS will be quite tricky, especially towards the end of the ratkin warrens when you're level 11 and you're having a terrible time avoiding attacks and a terrible time doing any damage to those annoying giant rats - maybe give Fyona a 2-H hammer in early game. Actually, that might not be a terrible idea even on a boosted build...considering I usually have Vraes do all the parrying.

Here's the Google sheet I've been using to plan this one out

[carthaginians]

Vreas kj fyona tam. Not close imo.

[crimsonking]

Jun 17, 2015 13:42:38 GMT -5 fallen said:

Some combos are natural, some are hard to get right, some are just hard. What do you think the worst / hardest combo of heroes is to play?

Another thread suggested Vraes, Kjartan, Fyona, Tamilin.

Is extremely damage heavy due to Resistance and Armor debuffing, but lacks -AP curses. As long as you are able to kill things as fast as they come at you, it will work. Vraes should become a defensive powerhouse with Fyona as frontline support.

The weakness of the original 4 is that 3 of them are far lighter on HP than their newer counterparts, and Kincaid makes up his lack of HP with Sure Parry.

I'd say any party without easily accessible -AP curses will have a hard time in bigger battles with lots of ranged attackers that can get to the rear. Fyonas and Kincaids -AP curses are frontline only and won't help much with that weakness. So Fyona, Tam, Kjartan plus any warrior will struggle, not in the usual random encounters, but in the big battles.

[fallen]

Jun 17, 2015 18:06:43 GMT -5 slayernz said:

Poooooooosssibly the weakest member of the party, and that's not really saying that he's week, is Vraes. Yes, Kincaid can avoid attacks with buffs, but Vraes just takes them and laughs. If Vraes were another character in the TB universe, he'd be your Neptune Operator. He'd stand there, bolt his feet to the ground, and deliver death and destruction to all who come close. He could be a Berserker, but I'd argue that they would be more nimble than he.

Hahaha, awesome post. Death to all comers.

[Gr8Scott]

Kincaid, Vincent, Kyera, Tamilin
No high HP tank, No one able to deal massive damage unless Kincaid dual wields.  No major cursing of Dodge/Parry unless Kincaid uses Throwing Knives so targets take longer to dispatch. 
On the positive side you can limit most enemies to 1 attack. 

Too many variables to find a viable workable party for most situations here for me:
Does Vincent build melee for more punch or lightening damage for the group or increased party accuracy?  Do you stealth lead with him or Tami?
Does Kyera build melee or go with more healing due to longer fights?
Does Kincaid build melee or ranged for the cursing or increased party accuracy?  Cursing or Critical melee attack?
Do you try to work Tamilin at point with Silent Stalker/ Blacknight or hangback and focus on Deadly Intuition/Ranged attacks?

I haven't found a viable consistent way to handle large groups or tough individual targets.  It just makes for longer skirmishes which means more party damage and healing, and re-buffing needed. I also haven't figured out clearly defined roles for the characters so I struggle with this lineup.

[En1gma]

^^ Ugh. Never even thought about that set...

[anrdaemon]

Jun 23, 2015 12:07:42 GMT -5 Gr8Scott said:

Kincaid, Vincent, Kyera, Tamilin
…No one able to deal massive damage…

You are SERIOUSLY underestimating Tamilin. Like, totally.
You hardly can build her in two ways, and each will inevitable lead to insane amount of damage per turn.
Especially later in the game, when you get opponents nicely clumped up for your convenience.

Do you try to work Tamilin at point with Silent Stalker/ Blacknight or hangback and focus on Deadly Intuition/Ranged attacks?

Blacknight is a nobrainer, there's no other talent that you pick first and stick to the end.
DI/SS, however, is a question. You can try balancing the two, or go for one.

I haven't found a viable consistent way to handle large groups or tough individual targets.

Ranged Onslaught. And Vincent could join as well. That for groups.
And for solo, just focus fire, or control the opponent until you can deal with it in your time.

It just makes for longer skirmishes which means more party damage and healing, and re-buffing needed. I also haven't figured out clearly defined roles for the characters so I struggle with this lineup.

Better armor and proper equipment helps reduce party damage.
Tomes of Sustainment help with rebuffing.
The roles in your case are rather clearly defined.
You have no other tank than Kincaid. Kyera can take beating, if you stuff her with the best gear money and luck can afford, but nothing compared to Vraes. And definitely not on a regular basis.
Vincent, you can use him in many ways, but he's not a tank. And not a healer.
Kyera can be a good damage dealer against undead, but her main role is a curse support. You may use her from time to time to plug stray archers, but I wouldn't do that more often than absolutely necessary.
Tamilin is a damage dealer, there's no way to change it. If you intend to rely in SS, push dex and stealth to the sky. If you don't… Still go for Dex and Stealth.
I would start by pushing stealth to ~12 and then look for gear with stealth. The ring from CoD is a godsend. I only lost stealth roll once a day ago. Was all like "what? How?"

[Gr8Scott]

Jun 23, 2015 13:27:02 GMT -5 anrdaemon said:

Tamilin is a damage dealer, there's no way to change it. If you intend to rely in SS, push dex and stealth to the sky. If you don't… Still go for Dex and Stealth.
I would start by pushing stealth to ~12 and then look for gear with stealth. The ring from CoD is a godsend. I only lost stealth roll once a day ago. Was all like "what? How?"

Thanks for the ideas.  I mainly am playing Ep1 & 2 here.  Tired of dying in long battles to get to Ep3.  Until level 18 Tami is single strike and without Dex curses, Silent Stalker often misses.  Even with Caid leading the party, she still needs to open some doors so I have her stealth and defense in a fairly good position.
Kyera seems to be the weak link as she always takes a few stray arrows that never miss starting in Ep 2.

Ring from "CoD"?  Cracken of Doom?  Cackles of Ducklings?  For God sake, Jim, I'm a doctor not linguist! There is a point where abbreviations become confusing rather than helpful. This party needs that ring because every battle has "Crying on Demand."  LOL  PS. They might be able to take the Cackle of Ducklings without much trouble, though.

[fallen]

CoD = City of Dead.

[anrdaemon]

Gr8Scott, check the startradersrpg.proboards.com/thread/11292/first-party-playing-normal and especially startradersrpg.proboards.com/thread/5897/tamlins-talent-table-hide-peek
Especially the latter one.

And to the ring… I was mistaken, it is actually a necklace - Darkness Amulet (+12 Stealth, +4 Security).

[bobsoup]

Jun 23, 2015 12:07:42 GMT -5 Gr8Scott said:

Kincaid, Vincent, Kyera, Tamilin
No high HP tank, No one able to deal massive damage unless Kincaid dual wields. 

Why not dual weird then? He's not doing huge damage but he's doing decent damage for me.

Vincent's lightening spear is awesome. Does a decent amount of damage to a large number of enemies at once.

[CdrPlatypus]

Kincaid Vincent Kyera Tam actually dosen't seem too bad. Have Kyera focus on EA =>6 then WS. Vincent ES + TB, TAM Simple DI + RO build, Kincaid Dual wield CF 3 = > PS 4 => Flanking Unity 1 => Lbtb 1. No need for -parry with kincaid + vincent even on nightmare if you combine TB and flanking unity and use +acc gear. Ive done it. Should get mad damage from a TAM crit build and ES + TB just gets better with time. Combine with Kyera -2ap and + dodge support give her banishment at lvl 18 for a little extra spanking power against the unholy.

[crimsonking]

Jun 23, 2015 12:07:42 GMT -5 Gr8Scott said:

Kincaid, Vincent, Kyera, Tamilin

Kincaid makes for a formidable tank, nearly immune to melee attacks, good against ranged ones. Kyera can support him well with defensive buffs and be a secondary front liner herself. Just ignore strength and melee and put a few points into Retribution for boss kills while pushing Constitution.

Damage comes from Thundering Blades + Lighting Res debuffing with added +Lightning gear to reliably break resistance, Accuracy from Dodge debuffs via EA and FF. This also means you usually bring the whole battlefield down to 1 AP on turn 1. Tam and Kincaid can do single target or group damage, so I don't see the big problems there.

The party isn't optimal, but still better than anything without reliable mass AP debuffing.

[matrim]

My opinion would be Vraes, Vincent, Kyera, and Tam. Too many defensive buffs and no mass debuff to bring armour, parry or resists down. This team would just get frustrating to play, safe sure, but it would take forever to kill things.

[anrdaemon]

Tamilin alone can be the all your party ever need.
Kyera/Sacrifice and Vraes can do a load of damage as well. Even more if geared that way.