Hydra vs. Neptune Community Challenge!

[fallen]

@rearick - great work, a Siege Goliath is always a hard take down. Good thing that you had space to retreat

Brutus Aurelius - team Neptune keeps putting up those points!

[Kanly]

On the board for team Neptune! Hydras can go torch themselves.

[fallen]

I probably say it daily -- but I love this challenge. So well put together And it's going to be a nail biter.

+1 contributor.

[fallen]

Anyone else seen the oddity where the downed shuttle is in Southbound Trail? That is really weird ... did that just show up with 2.2.1?

Figured it out - a code cross between Leo Drop Zone and Southbound trail. Fixed for next!

Great work fallen, you found, reproduced, fixed and tested your own bug And you're talking to yourself!

[En1gma]

Playing both sides of the challenge, it makes me marvel at the power of OW...

I took the time to look at the mechanics thread on Steam, and saw what I've always thought was a bug-- that OW stops enemies dead in their tracks. It's a shame that the Promethium doesn't have the same or similar effect. How is a Xenoform more afraid of a few rounds than they are from bloody Napalm? Not complaining, mind you, just making the observation that OW deals 5-10 times the damage of Promethium, stops them dead in their tracks, and can be used indefinitely... Kinda very powerful, though they can't shut down those spawn points like Hydras can, I just wish that the flames did more damage, looking at the two side by side...

[fallen]

En1gma - sorry if the guide was confusing. OW does not stop an enemy in their tracks. If the enemy attempts to move into a square targeted by OW, they burn an MP and then take the moment to replan their move. I hope that is clearer!

[Deleted]

On to the final two levels of the challenge! My CF Neptune delivered a 1-2 punch to a spawning tower in the drop zone: damage of 141 and 152 and it was gone.

Now I'm marching south and my two Neptunes are warming up in more ways than one. Enjoying the challenge immensely and hoping to put a great finish up for Team Neptune in the Traitor's Bunker.

EDIT: also, I enjoy the mental picture of my Neptunes using reactor jolts and pressing need. Had one guy with 10 MP for a few turns charging into the black. He didn't watch out for xeno, they had to watch out for him!

[En1gma]

Essentially stopping them in their tracks. Most Xeno have less than 6 MP, so the chances of them making it through OW is extremely low, unless you place it at such an angle that they only pass through one square (on the corner for example) or have someone else run through first. I was mostly summarizing there, noting that you have the opportunity to drop an enemy's MP in half if they try walking through the OW field.

It makes sense, and is the biggest reason (aside from the damage) that OW is my favorite ability in the game. Your explanation makes it much clearer, I just find myself wishing that Promethium did more damage, or at least more consistent damage to make each square as reliable damage-wise as OW (Soldier and Neptune) is at taking the steam out of an enemy's advance.

I see maps like the Tunnel Complex that I screen-grabbed and posted for your enjoyment, and despite having enemies walking through a solid dozen+ squares blazing with Napalm, I still had enemies surviving to attack the squad... Don't take this as a complaint, and this is probably only important in the context of such an extreme group tactic, but for the investment and care put into enveloping a full third of the exposed play area, I was hoping for a bit higher of a return, know what I'm sayin?

[xdesperado]

Apr 2, 2016 21:33:14 GMT -5 En1gma said:

Essentially stopping them in their tracks. Most Xeno have less than 6 MP, so the chances of them making it through OW is extremely low, unless you place it at such an angle that they only pass through one square (on the corner for example) or have someone else run through first. I was mostly summarizing there, noting that you have the opportunity to drop an enemy's MP in half if they try walking through the OW field.

It makes sense, and is the biggest reason (aside from the damage) that OW is my favorite ability in the game. Your explanation makes it much clearer, I just find myself wishing that Promethium did more damage, or at least more consistent damage to make each square as reliable damage-wise as OW (Soldier and Neptune) is at taking the steam out of an enemy's advance.

I see maps like the Tunnel Complex that I screen-grabbed and posted for your enjoyment, and despite having enemies walking through a solid dozen+ squares blazing with Napalm, I still had enemies surviving to attack the squad... Don't take this as a complaint, and this is probably only important in the context of such an extreme group tactic, but for the investment and care put into enveloping a full third of the exposed play area, I was hoping for a bit higher of a return, know what I'm sayin?

Reason I usually paired a Scout with my Hydra. Scout slows and Bio-Toxins them and the Hydra's Napalm finishes them off.

[Kanly]

Barely made it through Extermination Protocol without a death when Fury, my 2nd Neptune was brought down to 3 HP and was surrounded. I had to unload everything on the last tower, and was able to get the lich with the last shot from my engineer. This challenge definitely has me feeling the tension even more. I need a break.

[fallen]

Apr 2, 2016 21:33:14 GMT -5 En1gma said:

Your explanation makes it much clearer, I just find myself wishing that Promethium did more damage, or at least more consistent damage to make each square as reliable damage-wise as OW (Soldier and Neptune) is at taking the steam out of an enemy's advance.

Promethium does (10 x Talent Level) when an enemy moves through a tile, resisted by the enemies Fire Res (very rare, see the red Carapaces). Like all types of special damage (fire, plasma, etc) it is guaranteed a 33% or better dice roll. So, if you had level 10 Napalm Charge, every tile is doing from 33-100 Dmg. This Dmg is basically going around armor, where every shot of a Neptune hits armor and generates Heat, and requires the Neptune to be still there, guarding the space. A Hydra is free to move on after bathing an area in flames.

What levels are you using in your Napalm Talents?

Over time, the Talent Level of the flame degrades, but it takes more time the higher the level.

I hope that helps explain where we see the balance lies. The Napalm Damage is potentially very, very good. But it requires solid investment in its Talents.

[xdesperado]

fallen is that napalm damage per talent level separate from the fire damage from weapon and talents? Sorry I'm a bit confused now as the weapons list a base damage+fire damage and talents like napalm charge list bonus fire damage.

[contributor]

I have to say that after going back and playing with Neptunes after the challenge they are easily the more powerful specialist. You can look at all the math, but at the end of the day OW stops or kills enemies. A sea of flame hurts them, but they still very often get through and land hits. Even with Napalm charge 7 there are still a lot of enemies who can walk through it without taking much damage at all. It's decent for skitterers and hunters, but most everything else takes minimal damage. It's possible to say that well, if you take their talents up to "10" then they're effective, but even that is something of a disadvantage, because it means that they every specialist has to really do one thing. It takes a long time till they can branch out. For Neptunes OW is pretty effective at level 1 and then they can build in other skills along side that.

Then there's the split damage pool issue. Doing 30 physical damage and 70 fire damage delivers significantly less actual damage than doing 100 physical damage. I've often had Hydras land extremely pitiful hits on Goliaths and carapaces (20's - 30's). When you look at the Neptune there is no enemy like the Magma carapace who is basically immune to it's attacks.

With all that said I do still love the Hydra, mostly just for the sheer craziness. If you want to keep everyone alive play with Neptunes. If you want absolute crazy madness play with fire!

[En1gma]

I almost wish the residual damage was based on something else entirely... If it was based on a percentage of your weapon/talent Fire Damage, and then a factor of talent level, I think the balance would be much better for low level builds, while still granting high level Hydras an advantage.

Right now, with say Napalm Lance 2, it's really only effective during the initial blast, then deals tiny amounts of damage for the remainder of its duration. It's essentially urging the player to focus on Napalm Charge and Hellstorm so they can keep the residual damage competitive.

The other talents take considerable RP investment, and with the balance being the way it is, they just aren't as effective as Hellstorm and Napalm Charge IMO, unless other factors are taken into account besides talent level...

Thanks as always for hearing me out, this isn't criticism, and if I had realized the talent level factor during the alpha I would have brought it up much the same.

[fallen]

Apr 2, 2016 22:12:17 GMT -5 xdesperado said:

fallen is that napalm damage per talent level separate from the fire damage from weapon and talents? Sorry I'm a bit confused now as the weapons list a base damage+fire damage and talents like napalm charge list bonus fire damage.

The Dmg I am referencing (10 x Talent Level) is based on any enemy moving into a square (or standing in a square) that has Fire. That is the Damage-per-Tile.