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Post by En1gma on Mar 22, 2016 18:18:59 GMT -5
Never Parry? Good sir I believe you may be suffering some sort of concussion ;P
C. I think that the bug should be fixed, but those who chose (I can't imagine there were too many) the 1AP Epic in E4 may be upset that this will receive the biggest nerf by far (Assuming one even existed, I think it did tho...). So you probably need to find a way to change everyone's 1AP Epic to a 2AP, else some people are going to be ripsh*t that their brand new Epic is useless...
D. I agree that 1AP weapons stand to lose the most here. They should not be taken down too far, otherwise they will fail to overcome enemy armor, rendering them near useless without direct help from Choking Ash/Punishing Blows/Silent Stalker or Torrent of Steel/Energy Storm/Strickening. Groups lacking these will be hard pressed to keep their damage up, as many (including my own) groups rely on Crit% to make up the difference lost by not using higher damage 2AP versions...
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 22, 2016 18:25:03 GMT -5
En1gma I mean lose the parry from the light blades (edit: specifically the 1ap variety), but he still parries with the shield... Why parry with a tiny dagger when you have an awesome shield...?
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Post by En1gma on Mar 22, 2016 18:28:53 GMT -5
OHHHHH, I thought you meant that you just wouldn't parry, hence me thinking you took a blow or two  |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 22, 2016 18:37:48 GMT -5
Yeah, if that were the case I'm sure Vraes would reach out of the screen and smack me silly.
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Post by anrdaemon on Mar 22, 2016 18:58:31 GMT -5
A: My look at this is that we're talking about a flat 5% to 8% damage reduction which seems like it will have the largest impact on low AP weapons. This is probably my only concern. Entirely, the changes seems rather favorable to me. I would leave the opinion on Vraes' daggers out since I have no experience with that build. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
Lol, 3 years later and I love this game too much. Must make it better! A. Kill the bug! B. Great upgrade, keeps the great balance of the game but responds to player feedback. C. First response: Kill the bug! I don't like making people angry, but how many people are running around with 1 AP + shield builds? Probably a lot, but it's so not in keeping with who Vraes is. Second response: Players don't care about realism, they want their builds to work (ie. Lukai's blade). Probably a good compromise. D. Love this idea! I know that final numbers aren't settled but I agree that high AP weapons definitely need something to make them more attractive and this change will be just what the doctor ordered. I too, have groups depending on 1 AP crits, but it's still a valid build, you even get more chances to make up that lost damage. |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 22, 2016 19:27:40 GMT -5
It may not be possible, but what about if overkill is done, 50% goes thru to a single adjacent target, which would also get dodge/parry vs the attack and its soak/res against that %50 remaining? That would balance a bit of the AoE advantage. E.g. Vraes hits for 650 dmg, first target has 300hp, 50 is soaked - 150 (half of the 300 overkill) hits adjacent target, 30 is soaked, 120 done to the secondary... Possible? Would only be applied to single target attacks.
Edit: May not make sense to have curses overflow to secondary, eg. LL-CS, PB or SS. Also should maybe only be an attack vector inline behind the first target for secondary - to require interesting attack positioning.
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Post by mushroom on Mar 22, 2016 19:49:09 GMT -5
Wow, these are all great updates! Love that high AP attacks get a little love here, since it's been really hard to justify a two handed attack from a minmax standpoint. I'm okay with a little nerd to ToS.
I am ambivalent about the Vraes change, as I don't do leader boards. Not that I'd ever make him carry a dagger anyways, though!
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Post by johndramey on Mar 22, 2016 19:49:43 GMT -5
As always, just my two cents. And, honestly, since BF came out, I have been neglecting HoS, so.....
A - I never really considered it, but the idea of negative armor is a little weird. That said, it makes sense. However, would it be possible to have any -armor effect after the enemy's armor is 0 be applied to something else, say, parry/dodge? That would avoid the "why bother boosting this buff past X" effect that could arise from the implementation of a 0 armor floor. If not, I'd say just moosh it.
B - Very nice change to the skills, totally support it.
C - This is a tough one. As you said, he's not really designed for a 1-ap blade, but it doesn't seem right to totally take away the option. I'd initially just say to remove his ability to carry light blades, maybe he looks down on them as inferior weapons. That said, if there are a lot of players playing with that particular build, it could cause a backlash. Would it be possible to do what you suggested, locking a 1-ap blade primary so that it couldn't be used with a shield? If so, that seems like a decent work around. The only problem I see with that is players could think it is a little unfair if all other characters can do a 1-ap final dual wield attack while Vraes isn't able to.
D - Good idea! It would definitely give me an incentive to try to equip the higher AP cost weapons.
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 20:19:41 GMT -5
A. I kinda like the thought that you can over-curse on Armor... It makes the Talent Points worth it, and for me adds a cool thought that I rained SO much Ash and cut it SO deep with Punishing Blades that the targets will end up taking more damage than they are meant to. This being said, it IS powerful, but so is FEROCITY 10, or Juggernaut 10, or EA 10, or Strickening + ES + Elemental gear. I think that it could stay the way it is, but maybe only allow for a certain % of over-curse. Say 10%, this allows the player to stack SO MUCH armor curses on something that they are at an even more severe disadvantage. I'm fine either way on this one-- I'm the type of player that keeps my total possible Armor debuffs relatively equal to my enemys' armor total in general. That is extremely interesting. I had been so focused on "That can't happen" and then "There is no bug" and then "It's a bug, squash it!" that I failed to look at it in terms of "That's been in the games 3 years, the documented rules are wrong." I am now going to take another look leaving it in the game as it is, and fixing the documented rules and the display to accommodate negative values. Thank you for giving such an interesting take on it. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 20:29:59 GMT -5
C. I think that the bug should be fixed, but those who chose (I can't imagine there were too many) the 1AP Epic in E4 may be upset that this will receive the biggest nerf by far (Assuming one even existed, I think it did tho...). So you probably need to find a way to change everyone's 1AP Epic to a 2AP, else some people are going to be ripsh*t that their brand new Epic is useless... Thanks for specifically pointing that out here! That is an important one. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 20:32:36 GMT -5
C - This is a tough one. As you said, he's not really designed for a 1-ap blade, but it doesn't seem right to totally take away the option. I'd initially just say to remove his ability to carry light blades, maybe he looks down on them as inferior weapons. That said, if there are a lot of players playing with that particular build, it could cause a backlash. Would it be possible to do what you suggested, locking a 1-ap blade primary so that it couldn't be used with a shield? If so, that seems like a decent work around. The only problem I see with that is players could think it is a little unfair if all other characters can do a 1-ap final dual wield attack while Vraes isn't able to. One primary goal is to address this without breaking builds that exist. If someone has 20 Dex, 20 Blades and carries a 1 AP light blade, we can't grant them a Respec to fix their build. So they need an immediate way to "play forward." Removing the ability to carry Light Blades altogether does not provide that. |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 22, 2016 20:41:30 GMT -5
C. I think that the bug should be fixed, but those who chose (I can't imagine there were too many) the 1AP Epic in E4 may be upset that this will receive the biggest nerf by far (Assuming one even existed, I think it did tho...). So you probably need to find a way to change everyone's 1AP Epic to a 2AP, else some people are going to be ripsh*t that their brand new Epic is useless... Thanks for specifically pointing that out here! That is an important one. Don't make the epics two ap as that will ruin many builds too though, Vraes' epic needs to stay 1ap for dual wield setups... edit: maybe I'm confused/wrong again idk. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 20:53:23 GMT -5
[Don't make the epics two ap as that will ruin many builds too though, Vraes' epic needs to stay 1ap for dual wield setups... edit: maybe I'm confused/wrong again idk. Yes, this would only be done if you had Vraes on your team and you picked a 1 AP blade. |
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Post by John Robinson on Mar 22, 2016 20:54:45 GMT -5
fallen, Cory TreseA. Armor and Rsisitance Curses. I am confused, is this a different bug fix? For a long time the last paragraph of Combat Mechanics states: Over-Cursing Dice Pools All dice pools are individual and unlinked. Cursing a pool, such as Parry, until it has a negative number of dice always results in zero successes, but has no effect on other dice pools. Therefore, it is possible to "over Curse" an enemy, where you are expending spirit points on Cursing and gaining no benefit - for example, if you stacked -Dodge curses on a Ratkin until it had -5 Dodge, you'd see as much benefit as you would if you'd left it at 0 Dodge. This includes Armor and Resistance, which cannot be taken below 0.Read more: startradersrpg.proboards.com/thread/6711/combat-mechanics#ixzz43fyBybH7Here is what I could find this morning. Punishing Blades(10) + Choking Ash(10) equals a total of -68 Armor. Helps with a high level Warlord but will not take them close to zero. Holy Strickening(10) + Energy Storm(10) equals -38 Resistance and an extra -28 Lightning resistance. Most Volpa shaman or Ugo Shaman will have plenty more left over. What are the odds of getting 10 ranks in each of these to stack before the end of Episode 1 ? | Choking Ash(10) | 3/32 | -9 Parry -7 Dodge -26 Armor Block Aoe | | Punishing Blds(10) | W/26 | +14 Accuracy, -30 Damage, -42 Armor | | Darting Steel(10) | W/16 | +16 Accuracy, +36 Damage, -13 Parry, -11 Dodge | | Ethereal-A(10) | 2/82 | -2 Ap, -7 Dodge, -7 Accuracy Block shaped Aoe | | Crippling-S(10) | W/32 | +13 Accuracy, +10 Dmg, -66 Dmg, -7 Dodge, -1 AP | | ==> Resistance |
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| | H-Strickening(10) | 3/48 | -7 Dodge, -22 Resistance, -16 All Resists 5x5 Cloud | | E-Storm(10) | 3/48 | 85-146 L-Damage, +13 Accuracy, -28 Lightning Resist |
. +HP Buff Becomes More Auto. Sounds good to me. C. Vraes and Daggers. I agree, what Outlander would march to battle using a dagger with Phalanx Shield(10) and heavy armor? If he uses 1AP + 2AP blade how does that affect %Critical. D. Critical Damage Multiplier by AP.This is where I dig my heels in, and throw the red flag for referee review. The 1 AP weapon calculation is too low and the 4 AP too high. Please leave the 1 AP calculation alone. Rolling D3 for 200% 250% or 300%. Dropping it to 150% to 200% unfairly penalizes thrown weapons, and even wanting to play Kincaid or Selen becomes depressing. The talents available to Kincaid and Selen are designed to encourage players to use Critical percent attacks. Dropping the damage they can do makes them lackluster defensive characters instead of the exciting offensive characters they are today. EP4 is the first time I ever got Selen to level(50). By then she was getting 52% Criticals by combining Dance of Shadows(10), Frenzied Blows(10) zero punishing blades and every piece of equipment I could find, with critical including a couple of rare loot drops. I sacrificed any piece of equipment that could add more armor, dodge, parry, resistance, accuracy and damage in order to raise the critical hit percentage. This doesn't happen overnight it takes allot of careful planning and sacrifice. I don't care what the math says when fighting high level monsters dual wielding I can get 48 or 70 points of damage three times in a row and then kill a bowrat with 300 points of damage. When I really, really need to finish off a wolf lord, or Volpa shaman before he can cast a horrible curse my 52% Critical is often absent. When the critical arrives on a hard target for max damage that's a real fist pump moment. At level(49) Kincaid is also cramming on all the crit gear he can carry and is up to 33%. | Selen |
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| | Frenzied Blows(10) | W/16 | +40 Damage, +15 Accuracy, 15% Critical | | Dance of Shadows(10) | 3/48 | +3 MP, +11 Stealth, +16% Critical 8+Lore turns | | Kincaid |
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| | Darting Steel(10) | W/16 | +16 Accuracy, +36 Damage, -13 Parry, -11 Dodge Thrown small Aoe | | Cunning Footwork(10) | 3/64 | +6 Accuracy, +6 Parry, +9 Dodge 16% Critical 8+Lore Turns | | Flashing Blades(10) | W/26 | +13 Accuracy, +20 Damage, On hit add +13 Accuracy 12% Critical. Way too expensive to use consistently | | Tamilin |
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| | Deadly Intuition(10) | 3/64 | +9 Accuracy, +27% Critical Self Buff 3+Lore turns. She can leave this thing turned on all day long | | Silent Stalker(10) | W/42 | From Surprise -12 Accuracy -26 Armor +12 Accuracy +80% Critical 8 Turn Curse attack. |
If you didn't want Selen and Kincaid to use Critical hits why give them two talents that add up to a base of 31% Critical for Selen and for Kincaid a base 16% with possible 28% in the first place? Everybody take an honest look at your favorite characters. Each of them have a least one devastating talent that other people could argue was overpowered. Isn't that the point? Higher level monsters can take a real beating and attack in higher numbers. As far as 3 AP and 4 AP weapons go the cap should be 400% not 450, these weapons do massive base damage compared to any other weapons, They can already get one hit kills without ridiculously high critical hit percentages. The new strength bonus makes them even deadlier. Selen and Kincaid seem pretty balanced compared the damage and Critical % Tamilin can do from a range of 6 or higher. Critical hits are for finesse Dexterity based Characters Tamilin, Selen and Kincaid not Strength melee fighters. Throwing a low damage dagger into an eyeball that punches through the back of the head is a very high damage critical hit. Finding a seam in plate armor tickling the heart under the ribs takes allot of finesse and dexterity, lopping off a head doesn't need to be critical it already is. In Conclusion: (strong language kiddies). Dropping Kincaid, Selen and Tamilin from 200 to 300% down to 150% to 200% for 1 AP blades and thrown weapons pisses me off. The idea tears the heart out of these three characters along with my own. If it goes in, I'll be less eager to play, in fact I'll feel defeated before I even start playing a new team, what's the use if they can't get the job done?
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