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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2016 10:40:55 GMT -5
2 AP would need about a 40% increase and 3 AP would need about an 80% to be competitive IMO. Wow, those are some huge numbers. The proposed change to Critical Dmg Multipler is looking at deepening the complexity on a pre-existing system. I think it makes the Critical system more exciting, variable and puts more interest into the choice of weaponry, whether or not you build a group with +Crit or not. I do not think that it will address the underlying issue that you see with weapons being 40% to 80% below Dmg. I don't think our wide view from the metrics are misleading, but it is very possible the very small sample size here on the forum is misleading? There are about a total of 10 ppl in this conversation  Pretty small sample |
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Post by En1gma on Mar 23, 2016 10:42:48 GMT -5
I feel like some of this is missing the point... 2H weapons are effective because their minimum base damage is far higher than any 1H weapon. This allows Fyona and Vraes to be able to rely on consistent minimum damage instead of maximizing top end to keep damage from dropping too low as enemy armor increases.
To only look at the maximum possible damage only looks at half of the equation. Minimum damage is just as important, and isn't getting proper representation in this discussion...
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Post by Rashar on Mar 23, 2016 10:43:43 GMT -5
That is not really what I meant by it, I understand the extra crit damage increases ap/dmg ratio but it will only do that if you crit.
Now with 6% crit this means that 1:17 attacks will be a critical strike and that is far to low to notice any real difference, the crits you are getting will be wonderful I will not deny that, they will however not be consistent and reliable and thus adding extra critical damage for higher ap weapons will not be an incentive to use them unless you can get to a really high crit %.
So while you rightly say: "I don't think we should design the rules around getting to xx% crit" it is what you are indirectly doing by creating this change. Because without consistent/reliable crits this change will not really be visible.
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2016 10:45:41 GMT -5
That is not really what I meant by it, I understand the extra crit damage increases ap/dmg ratio but it will only do that if you crit. Now with 6% crit this means that 1:17 attacks will be a critical strike and that is far to low to notice any real difference, the crits you are getting will be wonderful I will not deny that, they will however not be consistent and reliable and thus adding extra critical damage for higher ap weapons will not be an incentive to use them unless you can get to a really high crit %. So while you rightly say: "I don't think we should design the rules around getting to xx% crit" it is what you are indirectly doing by creating this change. Because without consistent/reliable crits this change will not really be visible. Odd, I think it would be visible every time Fyona smacks someone and gets a Critical. And if I decided to tuck her shield away and carry a 2H hammer, I'd see it there too. It feels like you're trying to shoe-horn this change into being a core system. Criticals are by definition a low percentage event. I must be very confused. Going to take a break for a while. |
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 23, 2016 10:48:03 GMT -5
Thanks for all the feedback everyone. We're going to step back, take everything from this thread into consideration and return to the drawing board to see if we can draft a solution that makes people happy.
We do appreciate and value everyone's input -- these games would never be as good as they are without help from players like yourselves.
So truly, thank you.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 23, 2016 11:01:50 GMT -5
Cory Trese fallenHonestly I don't think things are majorly broken as they are currently. If your metrics show that a large percentage of players are already using and happy with 3AP and 4AP weapons then likely there is no reason for change. Many of us more vocal types here on the forums are the die hard fans who are looking to push things to the limits, min/max, unexpected talent combos, etc. For weapon damage and crits as far as I'm concerned the numbers are pretty good as is, but my feeling is that the flexibility in movement and ability to potentially attack more targets makes 1AP and 2AP weapons preferable. With a 1AP weapon if I get my crit % up around 15% then I start seeing around 1 crit per round with 7 attacks. As a player getting those crits is a YES! moment for me, like when I was a kid playing D&D and rolling that 20. With a 2AP weapon making 3 attacks a round you've got to get the crit % up to about 33% to average one per round. Now obviously no need or reason that we should get crits every round, far as I can tell you'll be just fine never getting any crits at all but those are the kinds of exciting moments I play the game for, especially if it results in helping me out of an otherwise tight spot or slams a tough mob/boss hard. With 4AP weapons and to some extent 3AP weapons, very limited number of attacks means you're wanting every attack to hit and really count. However unless you really get lucky with gear and have built the hero specifically for it, the crits are likely to be few and far between. That's the reason I suggested giving all 3AP and 4AP weapons a flat boost to crit %. If you know you're going to average around 1 crit every 4-5 rounds using those higher AP weapons without building specifically for crits, they become noticeable and more attractive for the YEAH factor. Also giving them that flat rate increase means if someone's looking to build specifically for crit's then they also become much more attractive to use. Hope this long winded post makes some sort of sense, insomnia here and only managed about an hour sleep so a bit wonky even with coffee. 
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2016 11:05:40 GMT -5
xdesperado - thanks for the post, appreciate the perspective. Just to correct, 4 AP weapons are very rarely used, 2 AP and 3 AP are the majority.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 23, 2016 11:10:56 GMT -5
xdesperado - thanks for the post, appreciate the perspective. Just to correct, 4 AP weapons are very rarely used, 2 AP and 3 AP are the majority. You guys rock, hope you never feel like I'm screaming at you to fix the games MY way lol. Just keep being the awesome dudes you are and tell us rabid squirrels to go hunt nuts for a while or something. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2016 11:15:07 GMT -5
xdesperado - remember to tell 2 friends about our games today and update your review
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Post by Rashar on Mar 23, 2016 11:21:48 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is "screaming" that. I know that my posts are impopular but please know that regardless of that I am not demanding anything.
Simply because I have a different view/opinion does not mean that it needs to go "my" way. It is/was an open discussion and while "vocal" I just expressed my sincere opinion.
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 23, 2016 11:22:57 GMT -5
xdesperado - remember to tell 2 friends about our games today and update your review Most of my "friends" are members here already sadly Am planning to get one of my friends a couple of your games for her birthday though if that helps  |
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2016 11:30:35 GMT -5
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2016 12:04:08 GMT -5
Rashar - heh, tone is so hard to read online. See johndramey's joke about the hammer size and you can see. All amiable here! I never heard a single scream out of my computer
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 23, 2016 15:01:07 GMT -5
2 AP would need about a 40% increase and 3 AP would need about an 80% to be competitive IMO. Wow, those are some huge numbers. The proposed change to Critical Dmg Multipler is looking at deepening the complexity on a pre-existing system. I think it makes the Critical system more exciting, variable and puts more interest into the choice of weaponry, whether or not you build a group with +Crit or not. I do not think that it will address the underlying issue that you see with weapons being 40% to 80% below Dmg. I don't think our wide view from the metrics are misleading, but it is very possible the very small sample size here on the forum is misleading? There are about a total of 10 ppl in this conversation Pretty small sample I'm pretty sure he meant just the dmg modifying gear [maybe other dmg buffs] in particular, so wearing +30 dmg gear+40% would be +30+12= gear becomes +42. I don't think he meant to include the weapon base dmg. ps I totally agree it would make the crit system seem more exciting/dynamic. |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 23, 2016 15:02:17 GMT -5
Rashar - heh, tone is so hard to read online. See johndramey's joke about the hammer size and you can see. All amiable here! I never heard a single scream out of my computer I'll try yelling louder then. :-p |
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Pretty small sample 
