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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 23, 2016 3:12:00 GMT -5
Um... I still like the idea of overkill so hard it hurts the neighbor behind... Milking a sacred cow. Moo  PS I wink so much it's like someone poked my eye out... Vraes!!! If the high damage bands of Vraes empowered attacks like CB, ferocity and br dmg+ are the problem, maybe instead of nerfing all 1ap crits (which hurts a lot of builds at least a little) and making 1ap shield combos completely inviable, with the complexities of epic gear and dual wielding, the damage die roll could be capped at some multiple of the top end weapon damage. E.g. A 1 ap blade may have 24-40 damage so 40*n would be the damage cap. Say Vraes has ferocity 5 and +20dmg from gear for a dmg die of d116, if the multiple n=2 then 40x2=80, all rolls of the d116 above 80 would revert to 80, all rolls below 80 act as normal, (e.g. 56 stays 56), while if he switched to a 58 top end dmg weapon in this example, then he could do the full d116 at any roll. Sort of the reverse of str rules... |
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Post by Rashar on Mar 23, 2016 4:26:57 GMT -5
Cory Trese fallen Wondering if there is an easy way to change crit frequency for higher AP weapons as opposed to change the % of extra damage? Current system a 3-4 AP weapon or dual wield strike is plenty devastating in most instances due to the much higher base damage. If you said a 4AP weapon gets a 20% bonus to chance of critical and a 3AP weapon gets a 10% bonus then the frequency of those weapons getting those big hits jumps making them much more appealing without breaking/changing the rest of the weapons. Thinking is that higher AP weapons are naturally more devastating and so have greater chance to cause massive damage on a good hit. Yeah I can use my little knife to kill you with a stab through the eye if I'm skilled and lucky, but doesn't take a lot of skill or luck to crush your skull with a large hammer or lop off limbs with 4+ feet of razor sharp steel. By the way % above are just an example, no idea about what a good "balanced" adjustment would be. This is imo a great suggestion. But what it basicly comes down to is that 3ap/4ap two handed weapons need a serious buff. I am actually curious as to how many people are using 2 handers fulltime and out of those I wonder how many are using those "juicy" *cough* 4 ap ones. From what I'm getting is that everyone is mostly playing kincaid and Selen and for sure they will be using 1ap weapons. Only character in the game who I would think that can use a 2 handed weapon and get away with it is Fyona. I see a lot people saying yeah with the increased critical strike damage range I am going to play 2 handers... you do understand that it does not change a lot right? If your characters has 0% crit then the change will do jack s*** for you. As I explained in my post for a 3ap weapon to be considered good under these new rules your hero needs to have atleast 50% crit with the selected weapon. As John Robinson pointed out it requires careful planning and gear investment to even get there. I find it hard to believe that there will be people that will actually be dual wielding 3 ap weapons or using 4 ap weapons, when it comes down to 3 ap two handed weapons if they get a good buff I can see these get good but otherwise as I said before and I'll do it once again they will still remain inferior to 1handers. The biggest difference between 1 hander and 2 handers is in the number of attacks. And yeah yeah I seen the counterarguements that with the right aoe a 2 handed weapon is devastating... well yeah so is having multiple attacks with 1ap... in fact that was even so good that this thread is now actually here. I have read tons of builds I seen many people claiming best and op at a lot of things HOWEVER I have yet to see that mentioned along side 2 handed weapons. The flaw with 2 handers imo originates from how the mechancis are designed (not blaming anyone) if I get +8 fire dmg with my 1ap weapon in theory I need +24 fire dmg with my 3ap to see equal result under the current crit rules. I understand me suggestion to reduce the AP from every two handed by 1 is preposterous but I do honestly believe that it will bring balance. You will not need to fix crit damage range. And there is no need to change anything else. Yes 2ap two handed swords will have a higher ap/dmg ratio then 2ap handers but isnt that exactly what you are trying to do? The way your fixing it is to make everyone take a crit build otherwise they won't even as so much smell the change. My suggestion while probably a lot of work makes 2 handed weapons deal more damage in a natural way it will work with the current rules and mechanics, the damage from 2 ap two handers wont be that insane because if you stack +dmg +crit you get the same bonuses as people using 1 handers with 2ap the benefit you have is a higher natural minimum and top damage and thus also average damage while people that use 2ap handers and a shield get the benefit of having all the extra stats and magical bonuses from the shield. I understand that lorewise it is weird, large weapons should have a higher "speed factor" but with the how mechanics work I honestly think this is a good solution it just requires a shit ton of work. Increasing critical damage range is imo NOT the answer as it just means that you are saying well to get "bang out of your buck" you need to go full %crit when you want to use 2 handed weapons and expect visible result. You are pushing people to gear choises and talent choises in order for them to actively take advantage of the new rules. Basicly if they can't do that or the hero does not allow that, the hero might even be worse of then before. This is also the reason that increasing the base crit% for 3ap and 4ap 2 handers might be a decent middle way solution, however if it requires the same amount of work as reducing the ap... well then I still think removing 1 ap is better. I don't want to trample on anyones feelings but number attacks is way more important then people seem to think, try fighting a seer lord, 3 necromancers, a wraith and 12 trash mobs while new ones are being summoned in and tell me do you rather want 1, 2 or 3 attacks? |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 23, 2016 5:03:38 GMT -5
Rashar I agree that 2h weapons are currently at a deficeit compared to dual wield or 1h with shield, or 1h with ranged option in many/most cases, but getting a clear out that isn't a huge shock to the player base is not perfectly easy. Besides the potential push back of any option, I think there are two issues here with damage in regard to 2h and AoE. 2h is currently at a disadvantage in many cases, but so is lack of AoE. That's why I suggested overkill damage knocking into an adjacent enemy to help those parties with little to no AoE, as well as the high ap weapon wielders. We all have our pet sacred cows of ideas - may the best one win... But really it'll be what the brothers both can implement and they see fitting with the overarching scope of the game with the players' feedback being a valuable, but not always deciding, factor. Of course you are correct that a 0% crits chance will see no benefit from the proposed high ap changes, and those with high ap options, high crit rate and AoE will potentially see great changes. I honestly don't have a strong opinion on any of this, but I hope with enough feedback some great idea(s) is/are landed on, whether yours, mine, xdesperado, the brothers, someone else's or all the above in clever and subtle ways.
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Post by Rashar on Mar 23, 2016 9:09:46 GMT -5
Well I personally don't want to win anything, I just want to be heard.
I have a strong opinion in general and the case with the critical damage increase has me on the edge of my seat because I really feel it is fixing the wrong thing. When this goes through then 1ap attacks but especially throwing knives are going to feel the pain for sure, this is not just Tamilin who has her torrent of steel but also Kincaid and Selen with their (aoe) attacks. Meanwhile even with this fix the issue of 2 handed weapons remains and I am sure testing will reveal that flaw. So if this (D) goes through as written then it will basicly be a nerf to 1ap attacks while 2 handed weapons will basicly stay the same.
I just want 2 handed weapons to be competitive and useable and awesome.
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tran
Hero
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Post by tran on Mar 23, 2016 9:28:51 GMT -5
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2016 9:41:03 GMT -5
Um... I still like the idea of overkill so hard it hurts the neighbor behind... This is out of scope for the changes we're providing and not something we could add to Heroes at this point. If the high damage bands of Vraes empowered attacks like CB, ferocity and br dmg+ are the problem, maybe instead of nerfing all 1ap crits (which hurts a lot of builds at least a little) and making 1ap shield combos completely inviable, with the complexities of epic gear and dual wielding, the damage die roll could be capped at some multiple of the top end weapon damage. E.g. A 1 ap blade may have 24-40 damage so 40*n would be the damage cap. Say Vraes has ferocity 5 and +20dmg from gear for a dmg die of d116, if the multiple n=2 then 40x2=80, all rolls of the d116 above 80 would revert to 80, all rolls below 80 act as normal, (e.g. 56 stays 56), while if he switched to a 58 top end dmg weapon in this example, then he could do the full d116 at any roll. Sort of the reverse of str rules... Will keep looking at the math. Certainly, the biggest issue is, as you put it, the Dmg bands for Vraes' buffs are unique and not designed for 1 AP weapons. Selen, Kincaid, and others were designed with them in mind. I will keep looking at the best Crit Dmg Multiplier solution, these other sweeping changes to how Dmg is calculated are out of scope. |
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 23, 2016 9:42:13 GMT -5
The metrics show that 2AP and 3AP weapons, 2 handed in particular, are very popular with people who are playing the game.
From looking at the players (not the forum) it seems that 2 handed weapons are already competitive and seen as usable by the majority of players.
I hope we can move this discussion past hyperbole.
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2016 9:43:53 GMT -5
As I explained in my post for a 3ap weapon to be considered good under these new rules your hero needs to have atleast 50% crit with the selected weapon. I don't understand this analysis at all. If you score a critical, you're Dmg Multiplier would be higher. |
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Post by Cory Trese on Mar 23, 2016 9:44:10 GMT -5
And by all means, everyone is welcome to join our next Kickstarter as an executive producer and have lots of influence on the mechanics of a future tactical squad game.
Bring your sacred cows along and we'll sort it all out during design.
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2016 9:45:10 GMT -5
The metrics show that 2AP and 3AP weapons, 2 handed in particular, are very popular with people who are playing the game. From looking at the players (not the forum) it seems that 2 handed weapons are already competitive and seen as usable by the majority of players. Very much agreed. |
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Post by Officer Genious on Mar 23, 2016 9:45:36 GMT -5
Sorry, it's always hard to remember that hyperbole doesn't come through text so well. No one in their right mind would use a 20kg weapon as it would be basically impossible to do anything with it aside from maybe making cool furrows in the ground. It was mostly meant as an exaggerated way to make a point that, well, dropping a heavy weight (20kg, for example) on something doesn't require a whole lot of skill. Vraes doesn't know what this 'cannon' thing is but figures he can stick one of those large roundish balls next to it on an iron rod and beat people with it. :-p ...Kjartan meanwhile tries casting firestorm inside it (from a safe distance) and proceeds to explode the cannon and sending cannon pieces and the ball formerly inside thru several cave walls. Ah ha moment and Kjartan began siege warfare proper in Steel... Ok... Maybe not, but it was amusing to me for a bit. :-p Why isn't this a short story in the lore section yet?? |
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Post by Rashar on Mar 23, 2016 10:26:12 GMT -5
I have nothing against 2ap weapons, they are good as they are. If 2 handed weapons already are competitive, useable and popular then why change a winning team? Call me skeptic, but to me it seems if that was true then no changes needed to be made. People on the forum are generally better informed so they have more information on which they can base their choises. Aside from that only 2 heroes can equip 2 handed weapons, Fyona and Vraes. I am not talking about equipping staves to casters. But it's ok I give up, I have said what I wanted to say, no more "hyperboles" from me. fallen"I don't understand this analysis at all. If you score a critical, you're Dmg Multiplier would be higher." Well yeah in essence you're correct but the emphasis should be on IF, in order to reap the benefits of your suggested change it means that if you do not get any critical hits you will see no benefits. Fyona for example has 0 talents that increase her critical strike, gearing towards critical strike is an option but it might not be ideal as she will probably benefit more from defensive/elemental gear. So without sacrificing your gear slots to %crit or having an added 6% from Kjartan or similar buffs she will likely not have any critical strike %. Now I totally see that IF you crit you do more damage but you have to be able to do this reliably/consistently otherwise you will be unable to take advantage of the rulechange you are suggesting. As a general rule of thumb (very basic) in order to be able to rely on critical hit % you need to have: "100: number of attacks= %crit required" So fyona when using 2 attacks per round would require 50% crit chance in order to take full advantage of your suggested rules. (now this can be a little bit lower as she does have aoe attacks that make it a little more difficult) But in general your suggested rulechange requires people that use 2 handed weapons to gear and use talents that increase crit %. Because if you can not crit then or have a very low % of crit then you will hardly notice any difference. Vraes has it easier as he can get upto 33% from his Berserk rage talent, but I can tell you from experience that even for Vraes it is hard to reach 50% crit without losing gearslots with valueable other bonuses. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2016 10:31:53 GMT -5
Rashar - thanks for explaining the confusing statement. You make a lot of attacks in the game -- many thousands -- so I agree, it is important to get Crit %. My Nightmare Ironman Fyona has 6% critical right now and happily smacking people with Reckoning at level 19. Criticals turn her strong hits (~50) into killing blows. They are a big part of my game even at 6%. I don't think we should design the rules around "getting to 50%" which ignores the most standard cases in the game .
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Post by fallen on Mar 23, 2016 10:32:56 GMT -5
I have nothing against 2ap weapons, they are good as they are. If 2 handed weapons already are competitive, useable and popular then why change a winning team? We have no plans in changing any of the 6,000 weapon stats in the game. Sorry that keeps coming up. |
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matrim
Star Hero
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Post by matrim on Mar 23, 2016 10:33:45 GMT -5
If 2 handers are so competitive, why are you increasing their power by so much and nerfing 1 handers? I am not sure how your metrics are obtained but do you think that it might be skewed a bit? 2h weapons are awesome in episode 1 act 1 because your resources are limited in bringing damage to the table and bringing down enemy defenses. It might be that a lot of your data is coming from early game. Anything past level 16ish and they start to fall behind significantly in damage output. This is from someone who has tried to use 2 AP and 3 AP weapons; because damage is applied linearly across all weapons the moment you get to stack some damage (20+ is usually a good point) more attacks means more damage. You see it as an issue with Vraes and 1 AP attacks but it translates into everyone else as items now let people stack some pretty huge numbers. Is it possible to implement a system where higher AP weapons get more effect from any +damage? 2 AP would need about a 40% increase and 3 AP would need about an 80% to be competitive IMO. I know your metrics are saying that people are using these but I've used them and they just plain do way less damage (as an example, I don't even use Vincent's relic sword, which is 2 AP because it reduces his damage by about 40% on top of the lost versatility of more attacks so I can spread them out among different mobs. I wanted to use his relic so bad because it has so many juicy stats, but that 1 extra AP makes it worse than store bought weapons).
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