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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 20:59:21 GMT -5
A huge thanks to everyone weighing in -- great thoughts all around and I appreciate everyone's time to read the suggested changes and be so generous with your feedback. I've read all the posts, but can't individually respond everything. A. Still turning over En1gma's suggestion to stop calling it a bug in my head  If including all of the other changes, maybe this is better to leave alone ... it has worked happily for 3 years. B. Great to see this is widely accepted. C. Per slayernz, the only real concern is making the rule clear in the game. I will look at this again and see exactly where we can express it. D. I definitely hear the feedback to be careful in reducing 1 AP Crit Dmg, as it could impact many characters and build options, from Vince to Selen and back again. There will be no large scale change to the 6,000+ weapons in the game (reducing AP, increase Damge ranges, etc) as I do not see the argument for it. I will look hard at the Crit Multiplier Ranges to make sure we land on the right set of numbers. The 4 AP spells are especially tricky to be careful not to push them into a new height of OP. slayernz - no, unfortunately there is no time-affordable way for us to hold a testing clinic for certain features. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 21:08:48 GMT -5
John Robinson - First, thanks for the great analysis. This is exactly why we opened the thread, because we need to see the angles and hear from the players on it. Thank you for taking the time. If you didn't want Selen and Kincaid to use Critical hits why give them two talents that add up to a base of 31% Critical for Selen and for Kincaid a base 16% with possible 28% in the first place? We do want Selen and Kincaid to get Critical Hits. However, the discussion is about getting the chance to get 7 Crits a turn (1 AP anything) or the chance to get 2 Crits a turn (3 AP, Dual Wield or Bow). This is not about getting Crits or not getting Crits, it is about the return-on-investment when you get a Crit with your weapon being more related to the AP you put into the attack. Everybody take an honest look at your favorite characters. Each of them have a least one devastating talent that other people could argue was overpowered. Isn't that the point? It certainly is part of the game. I've heard it over and over again that "this is the best Talent etc" -- everyone finds a different way to play. It is key to the strategy. Critical hits are for finesse Dexterity based Characters Tamilin, Selen and Kincaid not Strength melee fighters. On this, I disagree. See Vraes' Berserk Rage, and Vincent's Eye of the Storm. Criticals are for everyone and as you said, as the game progresses, the monsters get nastier, and the availability of Crit % boosts goes up and up, they are in fact part of the math that keeps the game hanging together. You start to need attacks (be they Strength, Magic or Finese) to score Critical Hits to effectively clean the hardest mobs. In high emphasis: thank you for the feedback and I will take it into direct consideration as we look at the Critical Dmg Multipliers. It is very possible that you are right (I have yet to spend those promised hours with the math) that 1 AP attacks should keep something near the current Crit Dmg Multiplier rules, and the change should be to further empower Crits done by 2+ AP weapons and spells.
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Post by En1gma on Mar 22, 2016 21:17:52 GMT -5
I still think that the 1AP attack should be allowed ONLY if duel wielding, as it's tough enough to position and attack without constantly having that one AP leftover. Remember that the players are forsaking defense for offense-- denying them that last attack would defeat the purpose in a way. It's not the dual wield classes that are game breaking, just the Phalanx setup.
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 21:20:09 GMT -5
I still think that the 1AP attack should be allowed ONLY if duel wielding, as it's tough enough to position and attack without constantly having that one AP leftover. Remember that the players are forsaking defense for offense-- denying them that last attack would defeat the purpose in a way. It's not the dual wield classes that are game breaking, just the Phalanx setup. Good point, in this case, I see the argument. Maybe would mean extra code to write, but it would be fair -- if you have 1 AP left, let them spend it. Just like cake. Just eat it! |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 22, 2016 21:23:21 GMT -5
I still think that the 1AP attack should be allowed ONLY if duel wielding, as it's tough enough to position and attack without constantly having that one AP leftover. Remember that the players are forsaking defense for offense-- denying them that last attack would defeat the purpose in a way. It's not the dual wield classes that are game breaking, just the Phalanx setup. Good point, in this case, I see the argument. Maybe would mean extra code to write, but it would be fair -- if you have 1 AP left, let them spend it. Just like cake. Just eat it! It's this sort of case why I think the epic should possibly remain 1ap. |
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 21:26:17 GMT -5
wascalwywabbit - hmm, good point. Kinda complicated. I can see the argument either way, but I guess you could always Dual Wield. Hmmmm. Ok, will think on it!
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 22, 2016 21:45:42 GMT -5
To John Robinson 's point on the 1ap blade crit nerfing - it's less an issue with Kincaid and Vincent since they already get perhaps OP effect with their melee AoE. I concur with your point for Selen, but That could be balanced through other means such as a modest boost to the number of crits and/or dmg she gets thru her talents etc to be more inline with Vraes, or a small AoE for FB or the like... but remember she has two great cursing attacks, and probably the best single defensive buff, so she's quite powerful and her bows (especially), large blades and dual wield would be boosted too. It's intentionally hard on the high crit frequency groups in favor toward making high ap weapon setups more viable late game especially. fallen Rather than go full tilt for the crit variances tied to ap, maybe just start small, 150-250% 1ap, 2ap stays the same, 3ap 250-350%, 4ap 300-400% etc. and then check your analytics when its been in the wild for a while. |
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Post by John Robinson on Mar 22, 2016 21:54:14 GMT -5
John Robinson - First, thanks for the great analysis. This is exactly why we opened the thread, because we need to see the angles and hear from the players on it. Thank you for taking the time. If you didn't want Selen and Kincaid to use Critical hits why give them two talents that add up to a base of 31% Critical for Selen and for Kincaid a base 16% with possible 28% in the first place? We do want Selen and Kincaid to get Critical Hits. However, the discussion is about getting the chance to get 7 Crits a turn (1 AP anything) or the chance to get 2 Crits a turn (3 AP, Dual Wield or Bow). This is not about getting Crits or not getting Crits, it is about the return-on-investment when you get a Crit with your weapon being more related to the AP you put into the attack. In high emphasis: thank you for the feedback and I will take it into direct consideration as we look at the Critical Dmg Multipliers. It is very possible that you are right (I have yet to spend those promised hours with the math) that 1 AP attacks should keep something near the current Crit Dmg Multiplier rules, and the change should be to further empower Crits done by 2+ AP weapons and spells.
I'm talking about getting 4 melee attacks (chances) per turn not 7 or 2. Taking anything to rank 10 is a big investment, and to be fair, usually gets a good return. Being able to use her without Punishing Blades has been such a wonderful way to play and gives me the extra 10 points for Dance of Shadows. In addition the impact it would have on Kincaid's Darting Steel and Tamilin's Torrent of Steel thrown attacks just doesn't seem fair, especially considering Kincaid's epic weapon. I'm glad it's not set in stone yet. Thanks for considering raising the 2AP + higher and leaving the the 1 AP alone. I think that would be the best compromise and hope that's what happens. |
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 22, 2016 22:05:30 GMT -5
Cory Trese fallenWondering if there is an easy way to change crit frequency for higher AP weapons as opposed to change the % of extra damage? Current system a 3-4 AP weapon or dual wield strike is plenty devastating in most instances due to the much higher base damage. If you said a 4AP weapon gets a 20% bonus to chance of critical and a 3AP weapon gets a 10% bonus then the frequency of those weapons getting those big hits jumps making them much more appealing without breaking/changing the rest of the weapons. Thinking is that higher AP weapons are naturally more devastating and so have greater chance to cause massive damage on a good hit. Yeah I can use my little knife to kill you with a stab through the eye if I'm skilled and lucky, but doesn't take a lot of skill or luck to crush your skull with a large hammer or lop off limbs with 4+ feet of razor sharp steel. By the way % above are just an example, no idea about what a good "balanced" adjustment would be.
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Post by johndramey on Mar 22, 2016 22:22:44 GMT -5
xdesperado actually makes a good suggestion there, it might be worth looking into giving 3/4 ap weapons a flat bonus to crit. Like he said, it takes a lot of skill to kill with a dagger and a little less so to kill with a 20kg war hammer.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 22, 2016 22:42:39 GMT -5
xdesperado actually makes a good suggestion there, it might be worth looking into giving 3/4 ap weapons a flat bonus to crit. Like he said, it takes a lot of skill to kill with a dagger and a little less so to kill with a 20kg war hammer. Who uses a 20kg (44 lbs) warhammer? That's insane...  |
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Post by xdesperado on Mar 22, 2016 22:44:24 GMT -5
xdesperado actually makes a good suggestion there, it might be worth looking into giving 3/4 ap weapons a flat bonus to crit. Like he said, it takes a lot of skill to kill with a dagger and a little less so to kill with a 20kg war hammer. Who uses a 20kg (44 lbs) warhammer? That's insane... Hulk, Thor, Vraes...  |
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 22, 2016 22:57:19 GMT -5
Who uses a 20kg (44 lbs) warhammer? That's insane... Hulk, Thor, Vraes... Well sure but actual historic warhammers were 3-8lbs... Larger than that and they were too slow to swing effectively at a moving target. Even some of the insane short handle ball hammers made in China never exceeded 10kg and were super rare - like the 7' horse blades. |
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Post by johndramey on Mar 23, 2016 0:32:39 GMT -5
Sorry, it's always hard to remember that hyperbole doesn't come through text so well. No one in their right mind would use a 20kg weapon as it would be basically impossible to do anything with it aside from maybe making cool furrows in the ground. It was mostly meant as an exaggerated way to make a point that, well, dropping a heavy weight (20kg, for example) on something doesn't require a whole lot of skill.
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Post by wascalwywabbit on Mar 23, 2016 0:44:58 GMT -5
Sorry, it's always hard to remember that hyperbole doesn't come through text so well. No one in their right mind would use a 20kg weapon as it would be basically impossible to do anything with it aside from maybe making cool furrows in the ground. It was mostly meant as an exaggerated way to make a point that, well, dropping a heavy weight (20kg, for example) on something doesn't require a whole lot of skill. Vraes doesn't know what this 'cannon' thing is but figures he can stick one of those large roundish balls next to it on an iron rod and beat people with it. :-p ...Kjartan meanwhile tries casting firestorm inside it (from a safe distance) and proceeds to explode the cannon and sending cannon pieces and the ball formerly inside thru several cave walls. Ah ha moment and Kjartan began siege warfare proper in Steel... Ok... Maybe not, but it was amusing to me for a bit. :-p |
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If including all of the other changes, maybe this is better to leave alone ... it has worked happily for 3 years.
