XP allocation

[Ahab]

Jul 25, 2012 2:16:02 GMT -5 scared said:

hhhmmm. i have been some kind of sissi, yet, it seems. my first runner startet on easy and i still play him (578 XPs spent). but I think, with my next try, Ich will aim for the next difficulty level.

Don't base your playstyle on us crazies! There's nothing wrong with playing on Easy. CK is a fun game, and you can play it however you want.

There are a few people like us who (after getting the feel of a game) always want to push the limits and make it as hard as possible for ourselves. For instance, when I play MUDs, I only join games with permadeath and player-killing (even though I don't try to kill other players myself). When I play Spore, I challenge myself to survive from Cell stage to Space stage in Hard mode without dieing--someday I'll have done it in every possible combination of aggressive/passive modes. But that's just my own insane playstyle. You'll save a lot of braincells if you don't try to emulate us. ;D

Of course, in CK, playing in Brutal is a good way to beta-test some of the features, so us crazies often have useful feedback on bugs and balance issues.

[Cory Trese]

We try to provide a balance for all player's preferences. Later games like CK and TA may do a better job than ST but that has ALWAYS been our goal.

[grävling]

Well, I feel a lot better. Abs and Ahab are simply accepting a higher death rate for young CKs than I am, to get the play experience they want. And since I am more worried about keeping my CKs alive, I end up needing to allocate differently early, rather than accept the loss of the Knights. After I do this initial allocation I put a bunch of points into stealth, so from that point on I suspect we grow in much more similar a fashion.

And scared -- playing on brutal is a lot of fun. You'll get there, and then you will understand. ;D

There is a real risk, however, in playing a game that is this challenging on brutal and enjoying it so much. You will likely find that other games you used to play, which were entertaining enough, now seem too tame because they don't have the death penalty. That's how much more fun this is. My opinion only, of course, but if you are the sort of person who really wants a challenge, then you are likely to be the sort of person who is disappointed when they don't get enough of a challenge, too.

[absimiliard]

grävling: Yeah, we definitely have differing levels of "acceptable attrition" during the early phase of a character's life. I am pretty ruthless on running my start scripts.

I've begun getting out a bit earlier than I used to though, with a resulting higher survival rate for new characters than I used to have. So where I used to push hard for a Day Three I'm now usually bailing out after Day Two, and often before I have to even. My current attempts usually bail after getting enough cash for a three-job-comp, which typically leaves just enough cash for some cheap MayaTek armor and a weapon (usually not two weapons). This is moderately reliable, for me, in that I now lose about half of my knights during the start-script phase. Historically the push for a Day Three kills 4+ CKs for every one that makes it out the gate.

Once the start script is over I probably still play a more risky game than you though. I'm pretty quickly accepting "stupid" jobs, like runs in/out of territory I have no business being in. The gain is player-side, more adrenalin-rush from danger, the downside is obvious in that I lose characters. (like you would expect)

I'm fairly sure we spend XP similarly once "out of the gate", it certainly sounds like we value the same things and share a strong devotion to not putting ANY XP into skills we don't absolutely need.

Interesting stuff to think about, very interesting.

-abs

[missionhill]

Thanks for the maths! Kudos!

[johndramey]

Awesome thread and thanks for all the in depth explainations of everything. I've been trying to get better at CK and it's been working... somewhat. I'll admit that I'm just playing on normal until I can get a feel for everything, however I wanted to ask a couple questions. In the OP brawling seems to be the skill of choice over firearms. However, I prefer shooty characters over punchy characters, so can I safely just switch out firearms with brawling and still have a feasible start build? Also, is it generally a good idea to focus on building up AP/attributes first and get skills second? I've been saving up all of my XP until I get enough to start pumping up body and dex, but at this point it is costing around 15xp per point in dex/body.

Very interesting to read all the different strategies, and it makes me appreciate the fact that there doesn't seem to be one correct way to play the game. Thanks everyone for sharing your ideas!

[grävling]

The big difference between playing a shooter vs a brawler is that shooting is harder.

guns take more action points to use than gloves.
guns have a lower speed than the cyan blue taser gloves.
guns require more accuracy to use than gloves do.
bad guys will try to run right up next to you. If you are a brawler, that's great, you let them run up to you and then you kill them. If you are a shooter you have them run up next to you, then you have to run away so you can target them, and then you shoot them. This requires more Action points.
Aside from Predator and Horizon Drones, which have more MP than HP, every monster in the NBZ has either the same number of MP as HP, or fewer MP than HP. So you would like a gun that does MP damage. But that's a Blasta Gun and its siblings, and they have lousy Penetration, lousy Speed and Lousy Accuracy. Ooops, guess we don't want one after all except for taking out capture targets. This means we are going to kill all our adversaries, not stun them. This generates significantly more heat than you get if you are a brawler who stuns everybody with taser gloves, simply because it is easiest.

So, if you are a shooter, firearms is not your primary skill to improve. Because you need dex + int + per more -- for every 2 points in dex + int + per you get one more AP, and that's what you will need the most of as a shooter for a very long time. What you want is a gun that has decent damage, speed of 2 or more, and a large score in accuracy. So go buy the mk251 bounty from Back Bay Importers if you are playing Elite and the Twitch Carbine if you are not. Once you have your AP problems settled down, you can start working on firearms. Later, when your firearms get good, you can swap your mk251 bounty for the low accuracy but otherwise better Hunter Sight. Poor skill in firearms can be compensated for with a more accurate gun, but a tiny pool of action points can only be improved by spending XP. Also, while athletics is a must for everybody, it is especially a must for shooters who want to position themselves so they can get a shot off at their optimal distance whenever possible. This is just another way to say -- if you are missing most of your shots your problem probably isn't your wretched firearms skill. It's that you cannot position your shots properly due to not enough athletics or not enough AP, or both.

Best of luck,
Grävling

ps the female 2 shooter is not working as it used to, but seems like Cory is fixing this now. pps you want 3 points of brawling, whoever you are, as this provides a defensive bonus against melee attacks.

[johndramey]

Whew, thanks for all that. Making me rethink going for a gunner, but I'll keep going through with this character and then reroll a meleer next time around. Maybe even pump up the difficulty if I'm feeling sufficiently on top of the game mechanics.

Anyways, if you don't mind I'd like to post my stats and have you evaluate what I'm doing right or wrong.. I know this is a thread for talking about XP allocation, and I'd be more than happy to create a new thread to put all these questions in them, but maybe keeping the forums less cluttered would be better? Also, this has to do with XP allocation so.... it's kind of on-topic? haha.

Anyways, my current guy is just out of the tutorial tunnels. I plan on going through the storyline just to see what it is, but here are my current stats.

XP -> 4 ready / 66 total
Attributes -> Body : 5 [6] / Mind : 3 / Strength : 3 (Ath: 4 / Brawl: 0) / Intelligence : 2 (elec/hack : 0) / Dex : 2 (Stealth : 2 / Fire : 4) / Perception : 2 (neg : 0 / Int : 1)

equipped : huntersight (rifle) / blasta gun (handgun/stunner) / SecureTekk Coat

I'm planning on pumping up my brawling to 3 as per your advice, then focus on jumping dex to 4 followed by int/perception to 3. After that maybe bring up stealth a little bit? I'm staying in gang territory and avoiding all encounters, I've only ever done two captures and one assassination, mostly focusing on safer missions.

[grävling]

Feb 25, 2013 0:42:00 GMT -5 johndramey said:

Anyways, my current guy is just out of the tutorial tunnels. I plan on going through the storyline just to see what it is, but here are my current stats.

XP 4 ready / 66 total
Attributes Body : 5 [6] / Mind : 3
Strength : 3 (Ath: 4 / Brawl: 0)
Dex : 2 (Stealth : 2 / Fire : 4)
Intelligence : 2 (elec/hack : 0)
Perception : 2 (neg : 0 / Int : 1)

equipped : huntersight (rifle) / blasta gun (handgun/stunner) / SecureTekk Coat

I'm planning on pumping up my brawling to 3 as per your advice, then focus on jumping dex to 4 followed by int/perception to 3. After that maybe bring up stealth a little bit? I'm staying in gang territory and avoiding all encounters, I've only ever done two captures and one assassination, mostly focusing on safer missions.

There is nothing wrong with your stats, except that they are all low. Right now you have (2 + 2 + 2)/2 + 3 = 6 AP. Plus 0-2 because you are keeping yourself stimmed to 10 or 11, I hope. You also seem to have invested in Body before you needed to in order to increase your Strength or Dex. This will make you take less damage when being hit, but with 66 XP total, I'd much rather have 1 more point of AP than 2 points of Body.

Right now your rifle is badly matched to your ability. The HunterSight is my favourite gun in the game, and it is a great gun, but it is also a 4AP and 2 Accuracy gun. Right now your AP is such that you are only guaranteed 1 attack with it in a turn, and you don't even have a full move worth's of AP left over unless your stim bonus is 1 or 2. And you might want to use 1 AP to aim. So you would be much happier right now with an AP 3 gun. Head to Fairmont Self Defense in the I-93 Barrens area and buy a Strumwhelger M2.

And while the HS is a fine choice for killing Los V tunnel rats, it won't work up in the NBZ. Things are significantly harder to shoot up here, and your firearms skill is way, way, way too low to use a HS. You will more or less miss everything. If you are playing Elite you want to buy the mk251 Bounty from Back Bay Importers. If you aren't, then this weapon will not be avaialble to you and the best you can do is the Twitch-Carbine you can get at the Mars Inc Surplus Store in Commonwealth. It was also available at Black Row.

Otherwise, I'd say things are looking good for you. Stay away from capture and assasination missions, and stay out of KH territory, as well as BS and corp land.
You absolutely must be able to get 2 shots off with your 4 AP rifle -- so that is a guaranteed 8 AP before the stim bonus -- before you take jobs in KH. Otherwise the first predator drone you meet will kill you dead, if the first red suited KH soldier doesn't first.

Welcome to the NBZ, chummer.
Best of luck!

[xdesperado]

john I'm far from an expert here but...WHY YOU LEAVE TUNNELS? LOL
Just a bit of fun there, however you definitely want to avoid as many encounters as possible right now and staying along the south edge will help boost your chances of surviving any encounters you do have.

Getting some chrome might also help your chances. Dermal Sheathing for ¥5000 from and Steel Bone Grafts for ¥1500 are both available in Dorchester and can help toughen you up a bit.

[grävling]

Feb 25, 2013 1:14:13 GMT -5 xdesperado said:

john I'm far from an expert here but...WHY YOU LEAVE TUNNELS? LOL
Just a bit of fun there, however you definitely want to avoid as many encounters as possible right now and staying along the south edge will help boost your chances of surviving any encounters you do have.

Getting some chrome might also help your chances. Dermal Sheathing for ¥5000 from and Steel Bone Grafts for ¥1500 are both available in Dorchester and can help toughen you up a bit.

If you have 5700 Y lying around, though I really doubt that you have anything like that sort of money, pick a day when your heat is absolutely 0 in the NBZ all over (see the heat meter) and taxi to Unified Research in Aztek Core and buy an Infiltrator Suit. This is a +4 dodge hard armour. But immediately taxi the hell out of AzTek Core before their security forces murder you.

[Swami]

Which 5700 hard armor do you prefer, badger? Is the infiltrator your new favorite over the Mars suit? (Stealth Tekk?)

[grävling]

Feb 25, 2013 1:30:08 GMT -5 Swami said:

Which 5700 hard armor do you prefer, badger? Is the infiltrator your new favorite over the Mars suit? (Stealth Tekk?)

Depends on if you want Ballistics 4 and Deflection 3, or the reverse. I prefer the Infiltrator because I almost never have a problem with melee combatants whacking me. Getting shot by Predator Drones and things that have initiative on me, well, that still happens.

[xdesperado]

grävling showing my ignorance of the finer nuances of the game here but how important is the armors dodge bonus/penalty?
I personally prefer the 7/5 hard armor I get in I think Boston Core that has a -1 dodge penalty...costs around ¥7.5-8.
Also I never use dodge or cover in combat, just the basic defense....

[grävling]

Feb 25, 2013 1:52:14 GMT -5 xdesperado said:

grävling showing my ignorance of the finer nuances of the game here but how important is the armors dodge bonus/penalty?
I personally prefer the 7/5 hard armor I get in I think Boston Core that has a -1 dodge penalty...costs around ¥7.5-8.
Also I never use dodge or cover in combat, just the basic defense....

The Dodge bonus for your armour has absolutely nothing to do with using Evade/Dodge/Cover in combat. It is about being harder to hit, period.

There are 2 theories for armour wear. Theory the first says that you should buy the armour with the largest Ballistic and Deflection value that you can afford. The serious Dodge penalty of -3 or worse (say on the Hades Hardsuit) means that you will get hit more often. But you won't take as much damage when you do. Make sure your dex is such that you can stand such a penalty -- if you go from being hit occasionally to -every single time -- and you are up against opponents who have automatic weapons (like the Yakuza red shirts carry around) then this will be a mistake for you.

Theory the second says that you should buy high dodge armour. Then your enemies will miss you altogether, nearly all of the time. When they connect the damage will be worse, but, well, that happens rarely. Even more rarely with good dex. If your dex sucks, this is for sure the sort of armour you want, but then what you want is good dex, so ...

It used to be that theory 1 was the clear winner. Then combat got tweaked and theory 2 was the clear winner. Then combat got tweaked again, and the suits got their dodge bonus/penalties tweaked, and right now I am not sure which is best, in general.

But I like the infiltrator suit as it is cheaper than the Hades Hardsuit and is hard, so protects from toxic substances.