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Post by grävling on Feb 27, 2013 14:46:26 GMT -5
me on a v-chip
what an interesting idea.
I am sure that I could give advice ....
right now I am still more thinking about designing the tunnel dr to give advice .... but hmm, how flexible is the v-chop conversation? I could have standard chats on XP, armour, what have you and then could you select by a button 'tell me about X' to hear what you want to know?
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Swami
Templar
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Lost
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Post by Swami on Feb 27, 2013 15:02:57 GMT -5
In the tunnels, you're a full fledged NPC. AND you hand out your v-chip for "in the field" issues. (Of course, this is my idea, it may not pass muster with the PTB). Alternatively, the v-chip would just open a chat window with you(irl) and they can ask you free form questions!  |
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Post by grävling on Feb 27, 2013 15:11:03 GMT -5
Well, if you get a bunch of mail from new players who are suffering because they aren't able to handle the NBZ that would support you and Cory pretty solidly. Especially if it's the being flush with n-Y feeling that is making them leave the tunnels before they are ready. I'm not sure anything other than an NPC offering some advice on XP allocation, I would Mallor myself, is going to fix a bad allocation though. You can't condition them moving to the NBZ on rep, XP, or n-Y, and be sure someone won't do a bad XP allocation. So maybe the real issue isn't the amount of n-Y new players get, where I still feel like a gimme tutorial attitude is right, maybe the real issue is a lack of good advice on how to spend your newly won XP. Occurs to me that maybe Mercer is a better choice for that conversation, since he sends you to the hotel. But Mallor is the one who's more likely to talk with you while you're there and have XP to spend. -abs Except that Mercer knows zilch about life as a fighter, so cannot properly advise. He's a desk-jockey. I've been analysing some mail I have received. Seems that people left the tunnels early had some other things in common. 1. T.hey bought the Hunter Sight. It worked fine for killing Los V rats even with a firearms of 3 or worse. In the NBZ this does not happen, even on normal or easy mode. You need 4 firearms on easy, it seems, to get the HS and any other accuracy 2 rifle to work for you. 2. Same deal, but they were using the Blasta Gun or its Corps equivalent. Again accuracy 2, again doesn't do the job in the NBZ. 3. The H/S and the Blasta were, in the tunnels, able to deliver enough damage with one shot either HP (H/S) or MP (Blasta) that they could one-shot their opponents. When they move to an NBZ gun that will work for them, even if it is the mk251 bounty, they find that mostly need 2 shots to kill the enemy. But they don't have good enough AP to shoot their weapon twice. They didn't need to in the tunnels and they always need to in NBZ. This difference is getting a lot of them killed. |
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Post by grävling on Feb 27, 2013 15:27:43 GMT -5
I'm not living in the Tunnels. It stinks!
But if my dr idea goes live, he could hand out my v-chip.
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Post by jclarksprint on Feb 27, 2013 15:28:03 GMT -5
grävling. As an experienced gamer of CK and on brutal no less, your game enjoyment and expertise are probably different from the casual gamer. I am curious, of the emails you get, how many are playimg on brutal or levels with penalties? Your proofs are presented quite effectively. Generally wat I deduce or the general idea of your stance is that because it is a tutorial it should be more successful at 'preparing' the player to enter NBZ, but is not quite doing that. I have thought about the money, and really that discusion is bigger than the game. As I do beleive that enough creds for an implant should garner an unatural edge to a player if they purchase a cyber enhancement, but that is another thread or even a discusion on another forum. Anyway, in game setting, I always thought that jobs in the tunnels paid better because of the economy of the tunnels compared to the zone. And as really more of a casual gamer provided me no issue when I went into the zone, and did jobs. I simply thought with normal citizens and the setting less was easily explainable I wonder if over all pay was less if not the emails would be we dont make enough creds. Probably any opinion I share will biased towards how I play anyway, I like the extra cred as being a more casual gamer it makes it easier for me to try different weapons and items because I enjoy that part of the game. I have played emough now that I regularly run around with about 110 DV and find I can still increase stats, albiet slower, and I make up for it with a larger team. (who can still increase theirs). Im the end, I think the argument by those who were pointing out the money in the tunnels was not in fact to lower those but to increase the ones in the nbz. So by lowering the ones in the tunnel the real issue may not have been addressed.
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Swami
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Lost
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Post by Swami on Feb 27, 2013 15:44:16 GMT -5
1) I don't think the payments in the tunnels have been adjusted as yet. 2) I also run around with loads of DV and I like the advantage it gives me over the gangers(usually) 3) Maybe if we want people to leave the tunnels later, we can adjust the threshold where you are "released" to the real world. 4) Tactics of a combat would be nice to be explained better by Mallor True or Mama Badger(if approved) 5) Dr Grävling could also be present as an anti-implant proponent and activist. 6) Long term this could be an anti-corp plot storyline weaved into the domes.(I am willing to have Swami be part of the plot line as well, even as the doctor[reformed implant aficionado]). 7) If people just want more cash coming out of the tunnels, maybe you could get a "bonus payment" at the exit by a setting available in the custom difficulty. I'm not living in the Tunnels. It stinks! 1) Badgers live underground 2) Tunnels mean you can hide from most factions 3) It could be a REAL V-Chip!(A card to connect to gravling's phone!) 4) MB could always be asking the Knight to be on the look out for filters for the ventilation system! |
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Post by grävling on Feb 27, 2013 16:06:30 GMT -5
I'm not living in the Tunnels. It stinks! 1) Badgers live underground 2) Tunnels mean you can hide from most factions 3) It could be a REAL V-Chip!(A card to connect to gravling's phone!) 4) MB could always be asking the Knight to be on the look out for filters for the ventilation system! 1) Point. 2) Point. But then I don't really need to hide now do I (shows claws!) ;D 3) God, wouldn't that make meetings interesting around here. Sorry, I cannot tell you how to fix your security problems right now even though that is what you pay me for. I am too busy teaching some 14 year old how to survive a hell-hound attack ...4)Point.  |
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Post by xdesperado on Feb 27, 2013 16:36:08 GMT -5
jclarksprint you can make much better ¥ out of the tunnels than in the tunnels. The problem is the risk vs reward scale. The very low risk nature of the tunnels is more in line with the sort of jobs you'll get with Vinny just starting out but he never pays nearly as well and you'll have more travel time and related expenses. As it currently is its very easy to exit the tunnels with a character that is all set to succeed north of the wall instead of having them get the needed exposure to the harsher realities of the NBZ and some polishing by working with Cava in the ganglands south of the wall. Making less money and perhaps having a time limit for the tunnels would do more to help new players learn the games concepts and how to succeed at their chosen difficulty, rather than just handing them a bunch of stuff early, then find they can't succeed in the NBZ.
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Post by jclarksprint on Feb 27, 2013 17:57:28 GMT -5
jclarksprint you can make much better ¥ out of the tunnels than in the tunnels. The problem is the risk vs reward scale. The very low risk nature of the tunnels is more in line with the sort of jobs you'll get with Vinny just starting out but he never pays nearly as well and you'll have more travel time and related expenses. As it currently is its very easy to exit the tunnels with a character that is all set to succeed north of the wall instead of having them get the needed exposure to the harsher realities of the NBZ and some polishing by working with Cava im the ganglands south of the wall. Making less money and perhaps having a time limit for the tunnels would do more to help new players learn the games concepts and how to succeed at their chosen difficulty, rather than just handing them a bunch of stuff early, then find they can't succeed in the NBZ. so are you saying you are easily creating a character to survive north of the wall? Are you doing this on brutal and because of your game experience both during play and then after becoming more familiar with CK. But there is a group of people who are not. does the money hinder from you doing that. The argument is essentially does creds create a crutch and how you resolve it in game play if it does. The consensus so far seems to be, game play must resolve the issue for casual gamers as they are having difficulty with success. This is a fairly complex issue or discussion. Based on my play experience, I don't use MNB as a tutorial and if I do find obvious issues I try and report them,(grav usually beats me to it) , I play it for the story factor and so I dont have to grind it out in brutal sandbox mode as im a more casual gamer running by script or the 'quick start' method takes away from my enjoyment. MNB lets me build up some cushion without crazy risk while playing brutal and lets me check out some of the story aspect and how I would like to play the game(cant wait for buildings, car duels outside the domedome(wishlist), more detailed matrix play). The extra cash lets me buy and try different weapons rather than the optium weapon or any other gear for that matter, without worrying about were the next meal ticket is coming from. really im just saying dont mess with the money cuz it affects me and how I play, not necessarily whats best for CK. That and I love chrome!!!!! its a cybernetic world and lets embrace it, and I wanna buy a piece for 200000. Wheres my move by wire system and cyber eye package that reduces overall dv value but gives me multiple benefits. I digress, guess I will be playing more custom to give me a cred boost. |
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Post by grävling on Feb 27, 2013 18:08:17 GMT -5
What you want is a different feature that I have requested -- Let me start with however much money I want! -- precisely for experimentation. I think that this would be great to have. I would use it a lot. But it wouldn't create unrealistic expectations about life in the NBZ, either.
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Post by xdesperado on Feb 27, 2013 18:38:14 GMT -5
jclarksprint my latest Sandbox character is a Female 2 on custom. I gave her the rich setting for starting money and permadeath (instadeath is a bit to brutal for my tastes lol) Enemy and world threat set at max difficulty. The 8k ¥ was enough to get me McFly's taxi and to the Happy Rogue where I picked up an escort to AzTek. 10k and a quick taxi to Mars Importers for a 3 job computer and I was set. Can run fairly low risk escorts from a number of different places to quickly build the bank account for anything I want. The 28 XP you start with means your character isn't in such a deep hole to start with on stats either. Makes for a quick game start on higher difficulty without the risk of running a script. Point is you have options in game already to scale the play to fit your mood and style of play. The storyline of MnB is fun, but if your not interested in "grinding" then you may very well tire of it quickly, since in effect you either grind in the tunnels to get the boosted money and XP before entering the NBZ or you grind once in the NBZ trying to build the rep you need to progress the story. Thinking personally that MnB, at least the tunnel portion needs to be more about teaching the game concepts to newer players, or those looking to try a different class, rather than a way for us more experienced players to make a "quick start".
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Post by jclarksprint on Feb 28, 2013 14:34:25 GMT -5
jclarksprint my latest Sandbox character is a Female 2 on custom. I gave her the rich setting for starting money and permadeath (instadeath is a bit to brutal for my tastes lol) Enemy and world threat set at max difficulty. The 8k ¥ was enough to get me McFly's taxi and to the Happy Rogue where I picked up an escort to AzTek. 10k and a quick taxi to Mars Importers for a 3 job computer and I was set. Can run fairly low risk escorts from a number of different places to quickly build the bank account for anything I want. The 28 XP you start with means your character isn't in such a deep hole to start with on stats either. Makes for a quick game start on higher difficulty without the risk of running a script. Point is you have options in game already to scale the play to fit your mood and style of play. The storyline of MnB is fun, but if your not interested in "grinding" then you may very well tire of it quickly, since in effect you either grind in the tunnels to get the boosted money and XP before entering the NBZ or you grind once in the NBZ trying to build the rep you need to progress the story. Thinking personally that MnB, at least the tunnel portion needs to be more about teaching the game concepts to newer players, or those looking to try a different class, rather than a way for us more experienced players to make a "quick start". I am going to try out your custom settings and see how it goes. |
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Post by grävling on Mar 22, 2013 20:43:55 GMT -5
edited the first doc again, to add this.
If you are playing Male 2, and have a brawling of 0, raising that to 1 is of higher importance than raising your athletics to 3, even if you are an agent X. You don't have a gun, and it is amazing how terrible you fight with brawling of 0. You cannot even position yourself for an aimed blow.
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Post by Onyx Drakkenblade on Mar 26, 2013 17:17:08 GMT -5
Just a note here that seems to have been left out of this discussion.
Another factor that lends to my leaning towards the Athletics/Dexterity/Stealth road is this: toxic vapor clouds. I'm not sure if it tests Dex or Stealth. But if you Seek Shelter it checks one of those two, and NEVER having to kit up or see a doc to keep your health up when you're traveling on foot helps DRASTICALLY in the early game. Additionally this route lets you focus on a non-combat oriented tactic (say for a hacker) with significantly more ease.
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Post by grävling on Mar 26, 2013 18:21:37 GMT -5
Just a note here that seems to have been left out of this discussion. Another factor that lends to my leaning towards the Athletics/Dexterity/Stealth road is this: toxic vapor clouds. I'm not sure if it tests Dex or Stealth. But if you Seek Shelter it checks one of those two, and NEVER having to kit up or see a doc to keep your health up when you're traveling on foot helps DRASTICALLY in the early game. Additionally this route lets you focus on a non-combat oriented tactic (say for a hacker) with significantly more ease. Run Away wants Athletics, and Seek Shelter wants Intimidation. Perception is good for all encounters. I am in agreement that Dex and Ath and Stealth are very good for you, but I think that seek shelter is not particularly interested in those, just initmidation and perception. Cory will correct me if I am wrong about this. Thank you for posting and welcome to the forums. |
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