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Post by En1gma on Aug 9, 2015 9:24:35 GMT -5
The template is either a 180° or a 135° angle, where the 180 is ONLY when the PC is on the EXACT same row or column. For the 135, one diagonal and one row or column will be selected, and the edges of the angle will be targeted first.
Distance has no effect on the template selected, it only makes judging the angles selected more difficult.
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Post by En1gma on Aug 9, 2015 9:31:07 GMT -5
LS 10 is capable of striking enemies very far away, so long as the TE is within 4 squares. Just remember that once it strikes an enemy, it will follow the angles of the template DOWNrange, ignoring any enemies between the caster and the TE, no matter what template is used.
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Post by anrdaemon on Aug 9, 2015 11:38:29 GMT -5
Wedge angle, but from first target, not from casting character.
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Post by Blitz on Aug 10, 2015 5:30:40 GMT -5
LS 10 is capable of striking enemies very far away, so long as the TE is within 4 squares. Just remember that once it strikes an enemy, it will follow the angles of the template DOWNrange, ignoring any enemies between the caster and the TE, no matter what template is used. Wedge angle, but from first target, not from casting character. OK, but If you attack 2, both 1 and 3 will get hit and they're both 180' apart from 2. Also, how is the wedge angle measured? Which two intersecting lines determine this? Also, 4 is hit with LS10, I think. Why does this happen? How is maximum range from target determined. If it is a matter of simply applying a template, then I'm afraid I don't understand Cory Trese's explanation at all... |
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Post by En1gma on Aug 10, 2015 6:21:44 GMT -5
Blitz I would recommend a reread of the OP, as every question can be answered in my original text. Your diagram is indeed correct, as the PC is on the same EXACT row as the TE. Same 180° template applies for columns and EXACT diagonals
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Post by En1gma on Aug 10, 2015 6:23:28 GMT -5
Also, no angle will result in the wedge shape shown in the talent's display box
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Post by crimsonking on Aug 10, 2015 16:19:07 GMT -5
The talent's area of effect lies within a cone that is centered around the imaginary line drawn between the talent user and the primary target. The talent targets every enemy lying within the cone, being farther away from the talent user than the primary target, and being close enough to the target to fall into the (not really) wedge pattern. Since the cone widens the farther the primary target is away from the talent user you can target more enemies at a longer distance. Thus, distance has an indirect effect on targeting potential.
However, this will only take effect once the distance the secondary target can be away from the primary target is larger than the distance between the cone's central axis and its edges.
Until now my experience from massively using both Lightning Spear 1 to 10 and Ranged Onslaught 1 tells me that range only affects targeting once the pattern gets to 3 tile wedge in size, and does so only at range 2. There might be a difference between range 3 and 4 when using the 4 tile wedge though. I will run a few tests once my actual party's Vincent gets LS to 10.
This analysis is based on the pseudo code Cory Trese posted.
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Post by crimsonking on Aug 10, 2015 16:30:48 GMT -5
Heroes of Steel is ultimately designed to be in the "board game style" of table top games, and Vince's LS rules are a homage to that. * You tap Target1 * A line is drawn from Vincent to the center of the Target1 and Range is checked. * The Target1 is attacked. If the Target1 is hit, continue to {Targets} * For each Target2 in {Targets} Check distance from Vincent to Target2 . Must be greater or equal than than Target1 distance * Check angle to Target2 from Vincent. Can be no more than 30' different than the angle to Target1. This makes a cone, but means you MUST shoot from offset to be awesomest.In "A" and "B" you should move east 1 tile. In "C" you should move west 1 tile. I believe range does have an effect. Thanks to bobc for the link Also, I always thought Cory Trese stated exactly that with the sentence I emphasized, but since I am no native english speaker there might be a misunderstanding. |
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Post by En1gma on Aug 10, 2015 18:31:27 GMT -5
As far as I know, having used these talents since Vincent was released, my OP stands true. I don't understand Cory's above post, because the mechanics explained don't seem to be what is actually in-game. -If this was true, then every shot fired would take the shape of a true wedge as shown in the talent display. Actually it would be even narrower than the display, as it would restrict the talent to a 60° angle, again ruining the talent. Cory Trese, I know you're extremely busy with the move, but if you find a spare moment, some clarification would be much appreciated. |
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Post by crimsonking on Aug 11, 2015 1:12:00 GMT -5
As far as I know, having used these talents since Vincent was released, my OP stands true. I don't understand Cory's above post, because the mechanics explained don't seem to be what is actually in-game. -If this was true, then every shot fired would take the shape of a true wedge as shown in the talent display. Actually it would be even narrower than the display, as it would restrict the talent to a 60° angle, again ruining the talent. How's so? Take the horizontal west to east type attack. The squares directly south and north of the primary target square are obviously farther away from the attacker than the primary target square itself. Or Pythargoras was wrong, but I doubt that. |
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Post by En1gma on Aug 11, 2015 5:38:48 GMT -5
Geometry isn't my strongest suit, I can admit that.
I guess I don't really know exactly what the question is here. I'm confident that the vast majority of the info in my OP is sound, as Cory and Fallen have yet to correct me on really anything so far (subject to change).
From my observations based off of well over 150 groups, the template for the AoE is laid down on the board starting on top of the TE, not in front of the player.
To me, Cory's quoted post reads more like a check for distance, not an exact reading of the template mechanics...
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Post by krakun on Aug 11, 2015 7:28:59 GMT -5
I finally drew up some diagrams of the test described below. 1) Create a boost in group, give Vincent LS10, and Selen lots of stealth. Go to the store rooms. Defeat the ratkins in the first room, they are not important. 2) Go east then north, to the tiny room that is 3 by 6 and chock full of ratkins, open with Selen to win the stealth roll. Observe the difference 3a) if Vincent stands in the doorway, and targets the ratkin 2 north of him Vs 3b) if Vincent stands two tiles south of the doorway, and targets the ratkin now 4 tiles straight north At distance two:  At distance four:  |
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Post by En1gma on Aug 11, 2015 8:12:29 GMT -5
This is not my experience with these talents, and I have never noticed a difference at any range.
I officially need dev clarification on this one at this point, as this is starting to make less and less sense to me.
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Post by krakun on Aug 11, 2015 8:53:28 GMT -5
Here's how I think the Area of Effect works, and matches my testing observations. No endorsement from the devs. Apologies for the quality of work done in MS Paint, I had to do it one-handed (the other hand contained a sleeping 3-week old daughter). The drawings for a pure-vertical targeting are done here, I hope to get some additional time to draw the other cases. The checks described here are maybe done in a different order, the end result is the same. 0) Vincent has LS 10, and targets the ratkin in the middle.  1) To be hit by AoE, the distance between a secondary enemy and Vincent must be >= than the distance between the target and Vincent. I express distance as "sum of vertical offset squared and horizontal offset squared", I don't take the square root because it makes discussions less clear.  2) To be hit by AoE, the secondary enemy has to be within splash distance of the initial target.  3) To be hit by AoE, the secondary enemy has to be within a cone, delimited by lines drawn at 30 degrees to the initial line between Vincent and target  4) If all these conditions are met, then the target is candidate for AoE damage (and then all the other checks are applied, such as dodge/resistance/armor and sufficient Sorcery to be hit etc)  These took quite some time to prepare, if you have a preference for the next set (pure diagonal vs offset diagonal) please say so. |
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Post by crimsonking on Aug 11, 2015 9:31:15 GMT -5
From my observations based off of well over 150 groups, the template for the AoE is laid down on the board starting on top of the TE, not in front of the player. According to Cory Trese the targetting is calculated using the angle between the line drawn from the player to the TE and the line drawn from the player to each E. Also, a priori there is no template. The templates are result of the targeting algorithm. This does not mean you're wrong however. Your templates show the algorithm's results in most cases. krakun, I don't know if you're right, but your deductions are mostly in line with my perception. Also, this is as outstanding work as enigmas original posts. But I am quite sure that LS 10 used vertically at range 4 would hit the squares 3 east and west of the primary target. I'll try to confirm that once I am through with Witcher 3 and go back to HoS. |
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