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Post by ntsheep on Mar 21, 2016 15:36:51 GMT -5
I think the best line in the film with the sheriff wascalwywabbit is when he comes in, grabs the dagger and start stabbing the table and the witch says "Something vex is it?" The look on his face is priceless. Some thing don't need to be said to be great.
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Post by CdrPlatypus on Mar 21, 2016 17:55:33 GMT -5
Wow, you forsake the shield? He said "1h hammer", so I suppose, she's still wieling shield. Ahh, my bad. Saw 3 AP, skimmed the rest That makes a lot of sense.[/quote] I do usually carry a 2 handed to swap out to when I need to take out a really obnoxious target, mostly I prefer to get 3 swings of reckoning in
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phaze
Exemplar
Posts: 368
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Post by phaze on Mar 22, 2016 6:52:20 GMT -5
Rashar Your 1ap Vraes may not last. Cory said in another post that he coded for a min of 2ap for Vraes. If that makes it to the app stores you're gonna want a new blade. Granted, not everything coded makes it to public builds, but it's a distinct possibility. I must have missed that one. As I am building a 1 AP Vraes for the late game, this raises my curiosity. I like the idea of Vraes picking around with a dagger backed by impressive damage talents and laughing maniacally.
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Post by Rashar on Mar 22, 2016 8:21:55 GMT -5
Yeah it has been said, the post might have been deleted though. That particular day things got a bit heated. But if I understood Cory correctly he feels that Vraes is this strong Conan like warrior who should not be running around with a "poking stick".
Due to how the game mechanics work if you want the most damage per round out of Vraes then a Dexterity based build with 1ap light blades is the best. Even at the base line two handed weapons have a dmg/ap ratio that is lower or equal to 1ap weapons. So after you add in +dmg effect and +crit the dmg/ap ratio of lower ap weapons is of the charts and it makes weapons that cost 3ap or more absolutely useless. For Vraes an added bonus of this is that dexterity makes him harder to hit aswell. Once again because of dexterity offering much more then strenght. It increases your offensive dice pool for dexterity based weapons and it increases your defensive dice pool. While strenght only increases your offensive dice pool for strenght based weapons. This makes the choise a no brainer.
Even in the case where Vraes gets limited to the use of 2ap weapons a dexterity based 2ap light blade build is still miles ahead of any strenght based Vraes build.
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 10:03:31 GMT -5
Rashar - that makes it seem pretty black and white, but I'd disagree. Everyone has a different way of seeing the system tho. My view is especially linked to playing on higher difficulties, which has a big impact on monster level, monster armor, monster resistance and all the stats that will drive the need for more powerful weapons.
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 10:06:25 GMT -5
Currently enjoying running my "All +Armor and +HP Build" on Nightmare Ironman.
This focuses on Kincaid with Live by the Blade 10, Fyona on her way to Righteous Fervor 10, and Kjartan almost to Pureflame Shield 10.
The stacked +Armor and +HP have made my first encounters with cultists fun, seeing some -0 or -10 Dmg even on Kjartan wow.
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Post by Rashar on Mar 22, 2016 10:42:51 GMT -5
Well I know my view on things is not popular (what is karma?)
But how is having 7 attacks worse then 2 attacks, 7 attacks with +dmg mods even at higher difficulties will surpass the total damage that 2 attacks with +dmg mods can do. Not to mention that there will be 7 chances of hitting the enemy and 7 chances to get a critical strike. Incase of 3ap+ weapons missing is a huge pain regardless of the difficulty and I imagine that on higher difficulties monsters are harder to hit aswell. Not to mention that with 1, 2 and 3ap weapons having +mp is a rather big priority. With a 3ap weapon you can only take 1 step, the 2nd step basicly costs 3ap. With a 1ap weapon every ap you have will be used and there will never be an issue where you have ap left that will be unused after having moved.
In order to win battles you have to defeat the enemies, this is done by dealing damage. This makes dealing damage the most important part of the game. You can still win when you are getting hit because you have potions or healing spells. You can not win if you can not deal (enough) damage. On easy difficulty anything that can summon extra monsters is annoying and I can only assume that on higher difficulties this will be even more true. So this means that on higher difficulties making sure you are not overrun is important and thus having a lot of damage to take out "summoners" is probably even more important.
You say: "My view is especially linked to playing on higher difficulties, which has a big impact on monster level, monster armor, monster resistance and all the stats that will drive the need for more powerful weapons."
When playing Vraes on higher difficulties having more free defensive dice without using gear slots seems to me as it is pretty easy to see that it is more beneficial. 21 more dice to dodge a physical ranged attack seems a pretty sweet deal. Even if he can not block or dodge them all I expect that at higher levels this will be more of an advantage then at lower difficulties.
Anyway I guess we can agree to disagree before the popularity of this topic reaches Trump levels. I'll refrain from promoting dex based Vraes and the 1ap weapons from now on.
With kind regards,
Rashar.
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 11:17:59 GMT -5
Rashar - interesting points. If you are just counting Dmg, you are not counting all the variables at play I see your points, I am not trying to disagree that it is a valid strategy or that it helps with defense. Just glad you are enjoying the game!
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Post by En1gma on Mar 22, 2016 11:54:14 GMT -5
1AP/Dex Vraes has been around since the beginning, and yes, with the exception of some very specific builds, it is the setup that allows him to deal more damage than any other version. It's just that it is kinda broken if you think about it-- Berserk + Burning/Thundering + Damage Gear et al PLUS an attack like FEROCITY or Juggernaut means he has the potential to deal game breaking abounts of damage by using a 1AP blade. Yes-- it's awesome, and one of the best ways to play him, but it IS broken after all. No need to drop the subject altogether, Rashar -- the best part about this forum is that it allows us a way to debate and discuss things exactly like this with the people actually writing the code for it. --I'll give you an example that fits in the same vein as this in terms of getting "Nerfed". Pinning Shot used to be dirt cheap to use repeatedly, and it ended up being waaaay too cheap for quite possibly the best curse in the game (barring EA and Ash). Despite my (and others) begging and pleading, it was balanced to cost a measure more. I refused to play her for a while, but evetually began another group with the talent. The balance made sense, and the talent fit much better in the game as a whole. --I think that this balance will do the same thing: nobody REALLY wants to lose the most OP setup for big V, but I think the game will be better for it. Besides: you can still have ALL the defensve dice from using Dex Vraes, just without the ability to use 1AP weapons.
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matrim
Star Hero
[ Patreon ]
Posts: 708
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Post by matrim on Mar 22, 2016 12:18:53 GMT -5
There are other factors to consider when taking 1 AP weapons out of the equation. I agree that with the right setup it does the most damage, at least till late episode 3 or into 4. In these parts of the game, the damage bands on weapons get really large meaning you can get some huge numbers. The 1 AP weapon band remains narrow, no high end numbers. When you factor in Vraes' crit, rolling high numbers with those 2-3 AP weapons dole out crazy numbers and eventually out damage 1 AP alternatives. The nice thing about this is that you do not need to build that heavy curse path to get these numbers either and the synergy with juggernaut is insane.
Taking 1 AP blades from Vraes all but destroys his dual wield builds as the lowest he could go down to is 4 AP per swing, which makes huge numbers, but 1 swing per round is tough to sell.
Again just different build paths, not going armor or res curse heavy opens up lots of new options to cripple enemies or pumping individual numbers to a point where they enjoy the same benefit that Vraes gets with those high numbers.
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 12:39:08 GMT -5
Taking 1 AP blades from Vraes all but destroys his dual wield builds as the lowest he could go down to is 4 AP per swing, which makes huge numbers, but 1 swing per round is tough to sell. Preventing Vraes from wielding Light Blades as a primary weapon would better match the intended design of the game. Sad that 3 years ago, we didn't fix this the first time it was mentioned.
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Post by samopop on Mar 22, 2016 13:04:49 GMT -5
I always thought it odd that hulking Vraes had a dodge factor of 0.75 (dexterity to dodge conversion rate), the same as Selen and Kincaid. I thought something like 0.5 would have been more appropriate. That would only be a slight nerf, leave current Vraes dex builds viable without respec, slightly dissuade light-blade based builds, and bring him more in line with his nominal "character". matrim - I think even late E3/E4 1 AP builds would allow more damage since at that point you would have much larger per-attack +dam talents and items. BR 10 plus Ferocity 3 would give ~+d100 (and you could have other talents/items to add to that). The attack band on a 2 AP weapon would have to be more than d100 larger than 1 AP weapons to overcome that deficit (3 attacks versus 7). For 3 AP weapons, they would have to be ~d250 larger (2 attacks versus 7 attacks). Of course armor/resistance makes things more favorable to higher AP weapons. But then crits make things more favorable to 1 AP weapons again . . . no conclusions here.
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 13:07:54 GMT -5
samopop - the fact that armor is soaked 7 times definitely is a help to balance out, especially on higher difficulties. The fact is, Vraes was never intended to wield a 1 AP dagger. His Talents were not balanced for it. We've ignored it for a long time, but it is time to fix it. Also, Critical Dmg is going to get a fixed based on Weapon / Talent AP.
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Post by Rashar on Mar 22, 2016 13:17:11 GMT -5
Hmmm and there goes my whole group setup xD
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Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 13:21:38 GMT -5
Hmmm and there goes my whole group setup xD We will do it slowly and in multiple steps. Not sure how we will fix the 1 AP blade issue, but as it has been a valid option for 3 years, we will have to provide a viable path forward for those groups. Not everyone has Respec available, so we have no plans of just "wrecking" your group. In the interest of transparency to the group who has been discussing it at length this week, I will start a new thread where I share proposed changes for discussion.
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