|
Post by Rashar on Mar 22, 2016 13:28:16 GMT -5
Well then I better get episode 4 done while I still can so I don't feel the pain so much. Currently 180 hours into this playthrough and while I don't mind any nerfs/balancing it is 176 hour invested with this group. (of which 30 hours having the game on while sleeping) I feel honored though After a month of playing Vraes gets a fix and crit gets a fix
|
|
|
Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 13:39:58 GMT -5
Rashar - hold out on the pain, I will post the thread shortly. Let's let this thread get back to the OP.
|
|
|
Post by En1gma on Mar 22, 2016 13:40:12 GMT -5
fallen-- Since you're going to make the minimum AP cost = 2, why not make an exception for DW setups? Minimum of 2AP when only one weapon is equipped, or if wielding a shield? If dual wielding, keep the rules the same-- if you're using 2 weapons, then you're not expecting any defense from your shield, and attacks would still cost a minimum of 2 anyway...
|
|
|
Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 13:41:02 GMT -5
fallen-- Since you're going to make the minimum AP cost = 2, why not make an exception for DW setups? Minimum of 2AP when only one weapon is equipped, or if wielding a shield? If dual wielding, keep the rules the same-- if you're using 2 weapons, then you're not expecting any defense from your shield, and attacks would still cost a minimum of 2 anyway... Let's let this thread get back to the OP. I will post another thread about changes to discuss and get the community's feeling.
|
|
|
Post by En1gma on Mar 22, 2016 13:42:38 GMT -5
Right-- I think we posted at the same time there Someone should post their all-melee group here... Was it you, contributor?
|
|
|
Post by fallen on Mar 22, 2016 14:24:40 GMT -5
Right-- I think we posted at the same time there Someone should post their all-melee group here... Was it you, contributor? Vincent Storm-Strike? I'd love to see it.
|
|
|
Post by contributor on Mar 22, 2016 15:32:57 GMT -5
Right-- I think we posted at the same time there Someone should post their all-melee group here... Was it you, contributor? Hmmmm, I never did write them up. I think they could be found by searching for Mighty Melee. Basically they were the four paid characters and they made it most of the way through E2 with no deaths on Nightmare. They finally died from a fat-finger mistake in the Underforge but I think I played them into the COD. Vincent was the frost mage. He used his two curses to strip AP and ranged damage and accuracy. I took that ranged curse up to 10. Only later did he get more into the slashing action, but eventually become quiet deadly. His AoE melee talent made him epic. Kincaid and Selen were my dexy-tanks. They focused on their defensive buffs, especially Selen with QsD. Kincaid also brought Flanking Unity up to 10 pretty early. That is the skill that probably made the group able to keep going and doing damage. Kincaid eventually took at least one point in his AoE attack. Fyona went pure Shield of Cortais, almost straight to 10 I think. I don't remember what I did with her after that. She didn't really start shining as a frontliner until she got the armor from the Hunting Lodge quest. They were real slow burners, but I think any melee team will have to be, at least on high difficulties. The Storm Brothers Orcin Boss fights probably took hours to complete.
|
|
|
Post by havnor on Sept 3, 2016 15:11:10 GMT -5
I don't want to create new thread and i think my question fit there What is party combo what can absorb most punishment? I was thinking about this:
Vreas with max constitution, max phalanx and max stoneskin...
Fyona with max constitution, max consecrated defense, max shield of cortias, max righteous fervour...
Kjartan max pureflame shield, max meteoric shockwave...
Im not sure about character development and I really don't know what stealth character should help this group maybe tamilin because they will lack massive dmg. And can this idea of tanking most of dmg be playable on Nightmare and maybe on Ironman? Can someone pls help me because I don't want to put a lot of time in them and then find they are unplayable or weak...
|
|
|
Post by wascalwywabbit on Sept 3, 2016 17:52:50 GMT -5
I know Vraes with ssk is very soak tanky, but there are enemies where that won't be nearly enough even with PfS and RF and cursing with MS. Consider Kincaid for Sure parry, CS, +LbtB instead, up to three melee attacks being completely absorbed can be huge. Also Kincaid with CS which can further nerf damage, dodge and AP which can make the whole team more tanky in effect -Kincaid can tank 1 4ap melee by himself easily with no dmg done to him, or even up to several 2 ap enemies when CS and SP are leveled. Selen's punishing blades will also fit better for the theme of the party too, PB can nerf dmg and armor, which will improve team soak effects and improve dmg outlay, plus QsD is probably the best tank talent overall imo. Add reckoning when possible.
There will be rough patches, especially until QsD and SP are leveled, but it is workable. Basically you'll level adding armor and dmg nerfing as much as possible, then rely on SP, CD and QsD for tanking the hits that soak can't tank all of. Of course Kjartan will be squishy support away from the front lines. If you need 4 tanks you need Vincent. SP Kincaid by the melee devils, and QsD near the ranged devils and laying out reckoning, MS et al. over everything.
Don't forget to keep acc up, FU is great for that along with reckoning and CS, plus appropriate skill and attributes. If you need even more, there's always CA, DS, PS and/or gear to add.
|
|
|
Post by havnor on Sept 4, 2016 1:04:09 GMT -5
Thnx for advice but I simply don't like Kincaid and the idea of dodge... I usually play real tank in every rpg. Could dex Vreas with Stone skin, phalanx, tank as good as Kincaid plus he will have more Hp and Armor? However i will definitely use that Selen it will fit that party really good. And what next skill for kjartan? Make him full support with CA or add Firestorm or Imolation?
|
|
|
Post by wascalwywabbit on Sept 4, 2016 4:31:58 GMT -5
Especially without the -dodge of CS on the enemies, and no FU, you're gonna need another acc boost, so CA, strickening and/or PS. Also without the dmg nerf of CS you're going to need to be more careful of position, thru episode 1. PB and PfS may not always be enough dmg reduction before RF becomes available. So pinning shot's -ap becomes more needed.
The 2 reasons people build for dodge usually is that you get greater acc with the right weapons and dmg taken reduction together, the latter reducing the need to heal. Soak/con doesn't contribute to acc, and avoiding a 1000pt. hit is better than merely soaking 250pts to still take 750.
Vraes may be able to take those hits more so than anyone else, but the rest of the party may suffer for it, in both acc and -ap + dmg removal.
You may be able to do it, but I know when I tried I was healing more than made me comfortable.
There are more experienced players of the game on here who could probably give you level by level advice of getting your team up and running.
I'm assuming your aversion to dodge is for the warrior and healer class, since the sneak and mage (except PfS) are mostly pure dodge/parry and avoidance (by range).
Sure Vraes can dex tank (All characters can dex AND con tank at least a little bit, but Kjartan is the squishiest), just as Kincaid can soak tank, LbtB is a soak and move talent afterall. As an individual, Vincent has higher hp top end than Kjartan too, but with PfS Kjartan benefits the team soak more (Vincent can ap strip too though). Likewise crippling strikes help party soak be more effective than ssk even though ssk is king of individual hp and soak.
So yes you can soak or dodge, even do both, but don't neglect acc. That means points in str, dex or knowledge appropriate to the weapons/talents. Str can help dmg but not D, knowledge can help magical defense, but dex helps acc for many weapons of sneaks, warriors and mages, and well as being dodge for all kinds of attacks, except plain curses.
It's just the way the game is built. The original 4 characters, 3 stand behind Vraes who tanks, while the 3 rain down dmg and heals. In pincers, either kyera or tam has to off tank when there is no safe retreat, and killing/cursing fast enough isn't an option. The other 4 vary it up, Mostly giving more melee and tank options.
|
|
|
Post by En1gma on Sept 4, 2016 5:47:59 GMT -5
Dodge in this game reigns supreme. When you are up against enemies that can two-shot any character in the game, no amount of soak is going to keep you alive, save by the grace of the Shield Bearer Cortias.
Most games out there, pure soak is viable, but this is not most games. Avoidance is bar none the best way to keep yourself alive.
|
|
|
Post by wascalwywabbit on Sept 6, 2016 0:41:12 GMT -5
Ok, I feel bad about not being able to be more encouraging of soak team with Vraes... Maybe it's not my place to feel bad, but I do.
Anyone else have better advice, because I just keep thinking add toughness to str same as con and make sure enemies can hit at least 10% more than max soak as lowest enemy max dmg so they always stay a threat... It gets tiring having wish list thoughts tho, so if there's a better solution than just hp gear everywhere and level heal a ton plus PfS, RF and ap strip as much as possible all while maintaining acc. I'd like to hear it too.
ps
Maintaining acc while boosting soak seems hardest, until half way through the game when reckoning and PS, con AND str are leveled.
By end game, toughness should only be like 5% of armor, for a soak team, less still after -dmg curses, so double that is not so much, but noticeable in early game before big point gears are available.
|
|
phaze
Exemplar
Posts: 368
|
Post by phaze on Sept 6, 2016 6:55:25 GMT -5
I am testing a party currently with Vraes, Fyona, Tamilin, and Kjartan with heavy soak elements. Phalanx Shield is critical as well as a shield that increases auto block percentage. Tamilin will use ToS to -2P and Fyona and Reckoning for -1 AP. I am stacking parry/dodge dice with Vraes to control melee attacks and hope that the auto block kicks in enough with a high soak/HP to be reasonable in the face of ranged attacks. I am prioritizing parry/dodge equipment with Pureflame Shield and Righteous Fury to balance out the use of Berserk. This will be a test as I go to see how Vraes handles.
Outside of Krete, I think it will work more or less, if one controls the battle flow and are mindful of the amount of incoming ranged damage to Vraes. Krete will be painful due to their range compared to ToS. I am thinking of using Kjartan as nearly a pure buffer/deduffer and rolling with higher levels of MS for added -Acc. If Vraes can't dodge ranged attacks like Kincaid, it is imperative that in melee he becomes unhittable.
Fyona will do Strickening later game, so I believe kill speed will be quite high to maybe balance things out.
The exact ratios of talents and equipment choices for Vraes are purely testing by me now, especially for later game.
|
|
phaze
Exemplar
Posts: 368
|
Post by phaze on Sept 6, 2016 7:00:23 GMT -5
As an added thought, I am just not sure that there is enough armor available in the game to purely soak damage given the amount of enemy damage. I think you need at least one character that can avoid melee attacks and/or ranged combined with -AP to really minimize number of enemy attacks.
I play on nightmare so enemies are less forgiving of test builds. Your experience may be different at different levels.
|
|