Tamilin needs a rework

[CdrPlatypus]

Deadly Intuition is the best crit boost in the game is another thing to remeber. The new improvements to farsight/slylook and stealth need to be considered as wall.

[rygar]

John Robinson actually, as much as Balgair might wail at me for otherwise daring to suggest this:D, in terms of stealth there is almost no difference (+1 stealth advantage to Tamilin to be precise) between Tamilin and Selen, all things such as skill distribution and equipment being equal.

But for 20 talent points expenditure, in terms of survivability in case of losing their stealth roll, there is no question that Selen will win out. Turns out Balgair is indeed wise beyond what his appearance may suggest after all  When it comes to his take on Selen and Tamilin 

[contributor]

I think part of the frustration with Tamilin is that she can only be good at one thing, ranged damage. Selen gives you some flexibility which means she can be used in multiple different ways for different teams. Pinning shot with it's AP, dodge and parry curse allows you to do so much other stuff with your team. But then you can build her differently to be an absolutely deadly melee fighter when you want. Tamilin has one function, massive ranged damage, that's it. Sure you can make her more or less stealthy or give her more scouting ability, but it doesn't change her fundamental role. For me that's the thing that chafes about Tamilin, not that she's not as powerful as Selen, but that she offers very little flexibility to overall team builds.

[matrim]

Tami is underpowered and it is very easy to see why. She does get higher crit rates but not by much and it actually does not pan out to much better damage than Selen anyway. My Selen is at 28% crit and Tami would be at 40%...the problem is is that both of them are criting about 1/3 of the time. The difference between 12% when numbers are low like 5 and 17 is huge and noticeable but when numbers climb higher it becomes less pronounced. This is quite literally all Tami brings to the table. Selen hits like a truck with ranged attacks too but has the enormous advantage of cursing parry, dodge, and ap as well as (and this cannot be overstated) the game breaking +3 mp. This means that I can move 4 steps and not lose any attacks while Tami gets 1 step. The crit does not make up for losing these attacks. On top of that the mp means that I can fire 3 bow shots and quite often move 2 steps, melee hit something for 1 ap and then step away, furthering the damage difference. Talent distribution is the key here. Dodge and stealth for Tami while Selen gets mp, crit, and stealth ALL of which are crazy valuable. Even DI is not weighted well as Tami's advantage is hyper bow focus and it offers accuracy which she already has a ton of. The brothers have said that they want each character to offer something unique and Tami just does not do that. Here are some ideas to get the ball rolling. Take dodge off of blacknight and maybe give her a small chance to make ranged attacks take 0 ap. This would encourage long range 3ap bow use and help alleviate her lack of mp buff. Another idea is to take acc off of DI and give her a buff where every crit gives +1 ap for her next round. This allows her to be more than a 1 shot wonder on the opening stealth round and lets her ramp up throughout the fight with some lucky crits. It would be awesome to see her crit 3 times on the stealth round and get 10 ap to unload with on the next round. This would turn her into the real killer that I know she can be. These are just some ideas.

[matrim]

Oh just thought of another thing! Give her an attack that lets her push mobs back spaces so she can fill the unique team role of setting up AoE's or saving squishy (Kjartan, I am looking at you -.-) characters. Maybe put it a couple levels into aimed shot or something.

[En1gma]

Another thing I have against Tamilin is that there are only one or two ways she can be built out.

Crit boost and stealth with DI, Blacknight, Silent Stalker, or DI, Blacknight, and Ranged Onslaught. Maybe a few points into Torrent of Steel if you feel she needs it... Any other way you build her she just isn't as effective as either one of these builds. But that's it. Selen can be built a dozen ways, and depending on the group, they are all just as effective as the next incarnation.

[contributor]

Dec 4, 2014 5:27:01 GMT -5 matrim said:

Oh just thought of another thing! Give her an attack that lets her push mobs back spaces so she can fill the unique team role of setting up AoE's or saving squishy (Kjartan, I am looking at you -.-) characters. Maybe put it a couple levels into aimed shot or something.

That's a pretty cool idea.

[Cory Trese]

I find that they feel very differently while playing -- Selen is a lot of talent switching and moving.

Tamalin is more like Kj -- shooting. I think in the CoD and Underforge, Tamilin is way more effective.

I use a 7 Range, 3AP bow and Ranged Onslaught, with 42% Critical. She does way more damage than Selen per turn, on average.

Added a few levels of Torrent of Steel and a good 1AP Dex blade, Bows skill is maxed out early anyway.

She's also viable as Aimed Shot, with a 2AP bow that Talent goes to 10 really well -- stacked elemental damage gear makes this a really dangerous build.

I agree that Tamlin does not have a melee build -- but by that same token, Selen does not have a ranged build. I'm definitely not seeing a "dozens vs. one" ratio in the builds between the stealth character slots.

Interesting suggestion either way. I'm glad everyone likes Selen so much, that's good for the business.

[rygar]

matrim while it's true and I agree with you , amongst other points you had raised, that mp bonus is great with Selen to fully utilize her full ap toward dealing damage, I would not be so sure to undermine the ranged superiority of Tamilin over Selen.

The 11% difference in critical chance that Tamilin has over Selen in ranged attack translates into  27.5% increased mean damage (or 2.5% in mean damage per 1 % critical chance increase). 27.5% increase in damage is nothing to scoff at , if you consider that the base bow damage and damage die you could add on increase as the game progresses. Taking further into consideration that Tamilin bow talent adds considerable damage die, that differential in bow damage Tamilin has over Selen per single critter hit grows quite significant. Now, mutiply that figure by the number of critter that ranged onslaught can hit per shot and you get the overwhelming picture of superiority in bow attack damage that Tamilin enjoy ! ( sp cost not withstanding)

Much can be made about the linear design of Tamilin in party build but that overwhelming damage figure I think is largely why Tamilin is as of now considered balanced and not overpowered.

[vintoks]

Dec 4, 2014 7:05:27 GMT -5 En1gma said:

Another thing I have against Tamilin is that there are only one or two ways she can be built out.

Crit boost and stealth with DI, Blacknight, Silent Stalker, or DI, Blacknight, and Ranged Onslaught. Maybe a few points into Torrent of Steel if you feel she needs it... Any other way you build her she just isn't as effective as either one of these builds. But that's it. Selen can be built a dozen ways, and depending on the group, they are all just as effective as the next incarnation.

This is my problem with her too. I have some test groups trying to focus only on how to maximize her as some alternative builds, just to see what potential she could have out of the deadly intuition, range onslaught route. It kind of works on normal but anything above that and its a slough all the way. I continue to keep trying but it is very clear from her skills that she doesn't have other effective options while every other character does.

Her high bow damage isn't enticing enough for how one dimensional she is, especially when many of the other characters are nearly just as devastating (perhaps arguably more so?) AND have flexible options on top of that.

I hope that changes someday. :\

[rygar]

Dec 4, 2014 9:51:47 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

.

Interesting suggestion either way. I'm glad everyone likes Selen so much, that's good for the business.

Lol

[boltsnblades]

Right now only have four groups and Tamilin/Selen usage is split fifty-fifty, but generally prefer to use Tamilin for her ranged damage. I only use Selen if I need another melee fighter ( mostly because Kyera staying in the back casting spells). Perhaps a better suggestion would be rework Tamilin's Torrent of Steel. Currently if you build Selen to ranged you get access to a really good ranged debuff; Torrent of Steel doesn't offer anything to make it standout compared to Tamilin's other talents, so there's no real iincentive to focus on anything other than ranged damage.

[Zhivago]

Dec 4, 2014 9:51:47 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

I find that they feel very differently while playing -- Selen is a lot of talent switching and moving.

Tamalin is more like Kj -- shooting. I think in the CoD and Underforge, Tamilin is way more effective.

I use a 7 Range, 3AP bow and Ranged Onslaught, with 42% Critical. She does way more damage than Selen per turn, on average.

Added a few levels of Torrent of Steel and a good 1AP Dex blade, Bows skill is maxed out early anyway.

She's also viable as Aimed Shot, with a 2AP bow that Talent goes to 10 really well -- stacked elemental damage gear makes this a really dangerous build.

I agree that Tamlin does not have a melee build -- but by that same token, Selen does not have a ranged build. I'm definitely not seeing a "dozens vs. one" ratio in the builds between the stealth character slots.

Interesting suggestion either way. I'm glad everyone likes Selen so much, that's good for the business.

I respectfully disagree on Selen. My Nightmare Ironman team uses her primarily as a ranged fighter. Dance of Shadows +mp allows her to set up PS5 for maximum efficacy while making sure she can set up, fire and return to cover if necessary. She's guaranteed to get two shots with her 3ap bow. While theoretically Tamilin does more damage on paper, I'm almost 100% sure my ranged Selen does more damage over the long run due to being able to fully utilize her AP for attacks. 

[Cory Trese]

In terms of range damage, Tam has an AoE attack. It's hard to believe that Selen can hit 9 targets a turn like Tam can.

I usually play with our data analysis stuff turned on, and from what I can see statistically, Tamilin in my games (about 50/50 with Selen) does much more direct damage -- but she's not debuffing to score damage from other characters.

[contributor]

The suggestion to give Tamilin some sort of cursing melee attack is really interesting. Again, I don't think the issue is that Tamilin is not as good a Selen it's just that she lacks the flexibility of Selen and can only contribute to the team in one way (i.e. High Ranged Damage). Whereas Selen can do high melee damage, light moderate melee cursing, super dexterity tanking, and potent ranged cursing and damage dealing. I guess Stealth can be added to Tamilin's repertoire as well, but Selen does that just as well, and the addition of extra MP makes leading with her even better because she has the freedom to really take advantage of surprise. To say Tamilin is "just" a ranged canon, might diminish how potent that is, but it is still somewhat one-dimensional.