Tamilin needs a rework

[contributor]

Dec 4, 2014 10:31:06 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

In terms of range damage, Tam has an AoE attack. It's hard to believe that Selen can hit 9 targets a turn like Tam can.

I usually play with our data analysis stuff turned on, and from what I can see statistically, Tamilin in my games (about 50/50 with Selen) does much more direct damage -- but she's not debuffing to score damage from other characters.

Selen has a range AoE attack too and easily hits 9 targets with Pinning Shot 5. Are we playing the same game?

[fallen]

contributor - simply that Selen's AoE is smaller than Tamilin's, from the start and at the end.

The voting on the poll is great.

[mrsarfa]

Dec 4, 2014 9:51:47 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

I'm definitely not seeing a "dozens vs. one" ratio in the builds between the stealth character slots.

I disagree and I'd like to try to explain better why and exactly how I feel about Tamilin.

Before that, though, I'd like to give a huge thanks to everyone that participated in the poll and discussion. Regardless of whether we agree or not, it's great to see an active community come together to discuss things. Special thanks to John Robinson for the in-depth analysis with a conclusion that I think surprised everyone, including himself. 

Ok. Back to business:

Heroes of Steel (and RPG strategy game) lives or dies by its replayability and the replayability of HoS derives entirely from the characters. Why do so many of us start so many different groups? It's absolutely not because we love slogging through to the Shaman, fighting the same exact groups of ratkin in the same exact places of the same exact maps, every single time. No. We do it because we have an idea about a group build that we want to test out or a specific talent that we've never tried before that we want to see in action.

I have not yet built a group that uses Vraes' Berserk or Juggernaut abilities, but I definitely will at some point because they look like a lot of fun. I've never built a group around Fyona's Holy Strickening, but that's on my list too. I haven't even scratched the surface of what Vincent and Kincaid have to offer, so there are endless paths there for me to explore.

With Tami, though, if you've ever used her in one group, then you've pretty much seen everything she has to offer. She kills things with a bow. She's good at it, yes, but compared to the other characters, she offers very little replayability. Cory Trese compared her to KJ, saying that KJ is similarly focused on ranged damage. This is true up to a point, but KJ also can be built as an awesome buff/curse support character -- in addition to his attack talents, he has Choking Ash, Pureflame Shield, Burning Blades, and Meteoric Shockwave. I have many groups in which he levels none of his damage talents and just plays the role of a support character. In this, he does offer many more choices for builds than Tamilin does. 

The same thing can be said about Selen as well. She could be pure melee damage (Frenzied Blows & Dance of Shadows dual-wield), ranged damage/support (Pinning Shot & Dance of Shadows), melee curse (Punishing Blades with a 1AP weapon), or an endless variety of hybrids. En1gma just posted last week about a cool build idea for Selen that uses a 1AP blade with Punishing combined with a bow and Pinning shot. Each combination of attack talents also comes in two flavors - stealth or neo-tank. Do you put points into stealth, wear stealthy armor, and lead with her, or do you give her light armor and forget about stealth?

My point is that each of the characters, except Tamilin, has any number of ways they can be built to either be a tank, a damage dealer, a support character, or some hybrid of those. Tamilin is only stealth, ranged, physical damage. 

For me, Heroes of Steel is all about the heroes. They are what make the game fun, interesting, addictive, and endless, but I feel like Tami is the least replayable of all the characters and that makes her a bit of a liability in a game that is so dependent upon a small number of characters.

[Zhivago]

Dec 4, 2014 10:31:06 GMT -5 Cory Trese said:

In terms of range damage, Tam has an AoE attack. It's hard to believe that Selen can hit 9 targets a turn like Tam can.

I usually play with our data analysis stuff turned on, and from what I can see statistically, Tamilin in my games (about 50/50 with Selen) does much more direct damage -- but she's not debuffing to score damage from other characters.

Nine? I can't imagine a situation in a typical encounter where nine enemies would be in play for a single attack. Again, I get the theory crating, but I'm talking real encounters over the course of the game where there are other considerations, such as surviving the next turn. 

[fallen]

Zhivago - never hit nine? You've played the CoD ...

[Zhivago]

Fair enough, you're right about cramped encounters there. I haven't made it there in Nightmare with Tamilin.

[contributor]

He did say "turn" and not "attack" which I took to mean in 2-3 attacks. It is true though that Tamilin's AoE is greater than Selen's though Selen can get AoE sooner.

[Zhivago]

Yeah, I saw that. I think in the final tower in CoD I will keep track of the encounters and maybe take some screen shots to demonstrate how I use Selen. Her +mp is absolutely vital to make full use of her AP. I'm still not convinced that Tam would be as effective due to how much I recall moving my ranged character.

Also, I think my view is skewed from only playing Nightmare. I've never actually experienced the game on lower difficulty settings. I can imagine that Tamilin might be tremendously effective on lower difficulty levels where one stray enemy can't kill her in one turn and she can comfortably stand and shoot. 

[CdrPlatypus]

Vraes phalanx shield got an upgrade maybe the best answer here is to upgrade torrent of steel somehow

[En1gma]

All this being said, I did just start a new game with Kincaid, KJ, Fyona and Tamilin, just because I want to see just how much damage she can do, and if it is enough to change my mind about her... Going the way of Blacknight, DI, and Ranged Onslaught, Kincaid will be defensive, but boosting crits with Footwork, while saving up for Storm of Steel- I love the way he's playing in the UF. KJ will be raising Ash and saving for Firestorm (or I might go Burning Blades and Immolation, idk) while Fyona raises group defenses and her own offensive capabilities for 2h Hammers... Sounds like it will work, I really want to capitalize on several group AoE abilities...

[CdrPlatypus]

En1gma I think that group will synergize well in part because only 1 character has a +mp buff

[En1gma]

I might even go so far as to lead with Kincaid, just to allow for a more productive first turn, where Tamilin doesn't have to spend valuable MP on maneuvering, as most enemies will close the distance for her... I'll also slap a 3ap bow on her, just to really hurt at a distance against the Krete and far off magic users and archers... 

[mrsarfa]

Dec 4, 2014 12:34:00 GMT -5 CdrPlatypus said:

Vraes phalanx shield got an upgrade maybe the best answer here is to upgrade torrent of steel somehow

I think I would actually prefer replacing Torrent of Steel with something else. Let's face it, Tami is not built for melee, so why not just go all-in on her ranged talents? Torrent of Steel made sense before Selen became available, but now that Selen is here to stay, nobody is going to choose to build a melee Tamilin.

I'd like to see something like the curse aspect of Silent Stalker getting upgraded and replacing Torrent of Steel with a group buff or something. Maybe +crit? Or a spell that reduces MP of enemies. That would be good to keep them from closing in on her later in the game when the AI gets smarter.

[CdrPlatypus]

En1gma If you want silent stalker I would lead with tam so she is as close as possible to the enemies on turn 1

[En1gma]

Nah, I wouldn't do Silent Stalker, for me the focus on consistent damage dealing over one or two kills on stealth is more important. Not using SS let's me focus on Blacknight, DI, and RO to maximize overall damage- I want her dropping nukes on things if I'm gonna use her. Yes SS has its place, but I'll have to see how the enemy spawns on me overall to decide if I need it or not...